rsbob 

I started the Pillar free training series just for kicks, and the first workout was Zone 2 for 35 mins with a warm up and cool down. Riding in a hilly area trying to maintain a certain number of watts is a real challenge to say the least. I was constantly over and under by a significant amount depending if I was climbing or descending. It averaged out to be about right (90%) but it was a PITA to constantly be monitoring and adjusting. Yesterday was a 2 hour session doing the same but instead I used my indoor trainer and it was a breeze. I watched Netflix while keeping an eye on ZWIFT on my PC to make sure I was where I needed to be and hit 98% accuracy for my workout. (Today is a rest day and tomorrow is intervals).

So….. if you really need to do and maintain whatever zone and you don’t live in a flat area, a stationary trainer is your friend, plus there’s some good British series on Netflix.

asgelle

You don't know me, you don't know my goals, and you've certainly demonstrated you have no clue how I should go about achieving them.

NVFlinch 

Whooo-eeee !
Someone has their chamois in a wad. Did I mention you anywhere in my opinion? Lighten up - this thread is not about you.

Ssj

I live in a hilly area and do a ton of zone 2. My key is east gearing, ideally with gravel bike gearing. For example, I use a 40t front ring and 10-44 cassette. My zone 2 uphill is almost always in the 44 cog riding 4-6 mph depending on the grade.

My road bike as 36 front and 34 rear and it’s really hard to do zone 2 in hills for me.

Road Fan

as far as I understand, zone 2 is not a rigid or fixed routine. It means, in my
my interpretation , that a significant po

Harold74

I'm going to probe those statements a bit, mostly in the hope that you -- or anyone -- might be able to provide me with more information on the subject. You and I have discussed this "all roads lead to Rome" business in the past. And that was very valuable to me as it led to a bunch of subsequent research and learning.

FWIW: I ride for health benefits alone. Any improvements that I make to my cycling performance are secondary.

There are good reasons to believe that improvements in the Zone 2 energy system may have significant health benefits.

As with anything physiological, it seems reasonable to expect that the best way to improve the Z2 energy system is to tax it. And, if one is at all short on training time, to tax it maximally. That, usually, is how physiological adaptations are encouraged.

It is clearly the case that all of the body's energy systems are in play, in some proportion, at all levels of energy expenditure. All roads do lead to Rome in this sense.

What is not clear to me, is whether or not the Z2 system continues to be taxed maximally at levels of expenditure above the Z2 threshold.

As an example, I consider the top of my Z2 range to be about 180W. If I ride at 280W, does that mean that I'm doing 180W Z2 and 100W glycolytic, as I would wish? Or might it be 60W Z2 and 200W glycolytic which I would consider to be a problem?

Regarding the fragility of Z2, it is my understanding that, while one can bounce in and out of Z2, the rebound back in would take some time. I feel as though I recall reading something to the tune of 20min - 30min. Someone ought to fact check that however.

This makes sense to me since most of the body's signaling systems are based on the accrual and depletion of chemicals. Somewhere, there's a reservoir of something that builds up when you ask for more energy. As that reservoir fills, it triggers the greater involvement of the systems that produce energy more quickly. Surely, reversing that process is not an instantaneous thing.

Whether or not this kind of fragility affects one's riding choices is probably a function of the kind of ride being undertaken. For example:

1) Six hour ride with a single, half hour climb in there someplace? No sweat, most of that ride will still be maximal Z2.

2) One hour training ride. A climb at the beginning may, effectively, make it so that almost none of the ride is maximal Z2. Most of my rides are under 90 minutes. I address this by sticking to Z2 heartrates for all but the last 15 minutes or so.

3) A longer ride in the mountains. I live in the Rockies and there are plenty of rides around here where you're basically climbing or descending 80% of the time. Given a 20 min - 30 min lag time in getting back to Z2 once you've gone significantly beyond it, one can imagine rides where you wind up spending almost no time maximally Z2. I address this by using a bike with a very low gear ratio that allows me to Z2 spin my way up pretty much anything. Then I'll strategically choose a few hills to climb where I do ride at a higher intensity but I have enough space around those big efforts to spend some meaningful time in Z2.

I've been wrestling with sorting this stuff out for the better part of a year. My intent here is to facilitate further discussion, not have my comments interpreted as being authoritative in any way. I'm definitely a physiology tourist.

Harold74

As a relatively weak rider, doing consistent Z2 in the Rockies means that I use a very low gear ratio. I'm running a 26T triple up front and a 32T cassette in the back so I can go as low as 0.8125. I don't recall ever having to go quite that low but, when I'm in the mountains with friends, I like to have the assurance of knowing that I could climb a wall without having to get off and walk.

There are several things that I find aesthetically objectionable about this:

- Triples are clearly out of vogue.
- I run a very long chain.
- Sometimes my speed is so slow that I fear falling over.

I try to stay focused on the quality of the ride and my riding rather than these aesthetic concerns.

howaboutme

I live in rolling terrain too (northern VA) and can't really get out of it unless I drive to the coast. The other way is worse (or better depending on ride type) because it's the mountains. I am coming back to riding and am out of shape and got caught up thinking "how am I going to do zone 2" to increase my endurance? My hills are punchy, always up and down. The ups are often greater than 6% (sometimes double digits) and the downs are fast but short so no time to recover. I told myself to "just ride". To truth is, no amount of gearing will make the hills easier to get to zone 2 (at least at my current fitness level) so the only way is to do indoor training (which I don't have yet).

terrymorse 

Well, I don't think there is anything called the "Zone 2 energy system", but there is fat burning and carbohydrate burning, with fat burning being high in zones 1 and 2 (Coggan zones).

Typical FAT and carbohydrate usage by exercise intensity:


Source: https://www.riderx.info/the-endurance...tual-athletes/


Let's consider fat burning as a desired adaptation. Andy Coggan has said that you don't have to exercise in your maximal fat burning zone to get better at burning fat. The main adaptation for fat burning is mitochondria, which develop more at higher exercise levels. Mitochondria also appear to adapt to volume -- total time spent exercising.

Based on the idea of how mitochondria responds to exercise, here is some general advice:

If fat burning capability is the goal, and you have a short amount of time per week to exercise, you should exercise at the highest level you can sustain, in the amount of time you have, while watching for signs of fatigue.

When you exercise many hours per week, fatigue becomes the limiting factor, then the ideas of "polarized training" and "pyramidal training" become important.

Psychopasta

Hey guys,

Thanks all for the thoughtful replies.

- Mark

Trakhak

I recently started using a MyWhoosh goal-based daily workout plan. Interestingly, the recovery days are not strictly Zone 1 or Zone 2 or a mix of the two. The recovery days mostly include intervals in Zone 3 or even Zone 4 or 5 (with the duration riding in each of the harder zones being progressively shorter, of course). I've used Xert and Trainer Road, too, and they do the same mix of zones for recovery days.

So the coaches who plot out these plans for those companies seem to believe that unvarying adherence to Zone 2 is not an absolute requirement for achieving improved fitness. (FWIW, I've been doing both of the recommended workouts per day, totaling close to 14 hours per week of indoor riding, so the mixed-zone plans apparently don't represent compromises meant for the benefit of time-crunched riders.)

Harold74

Right, but the question is really do you have to exercise in your maximal fat burning zone to get better at maximally burning fat. From my perspective, if I'm not maxing out the rate at which I'm getting better at burning fat, then I've left something on the table.

Some sources suggest that you are not maximally using your fat burning energy pathways at higher energy intensities. Like this study, a clip of which is shown below: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...B1%2C%2022%5D..

This kind of suggests that the top of Z2 is where you begin to sub-optimally engage your Z2 / fat oxidation energy pathway.

terrymorse 

No, you don’t have to exercise at your maximum fat burning zone to improve your fat oxidation capacity. Fat burning capacity is about the mitochondria.

To improve fat oxidation capacity, build more mitochondria, and improve their function. Build more mitochondria by riding more hours. Improve mitochondria function by riding hard.

Wildwood 

This thread needs more pics.

Alternatively, ..... with the necessary 52tooth cog on that road cassette.

Harold74

That was well put and I agree, at least at the extreme ends of the intensity spectrum.

With reference to the graphic below, the part that I'm unsure of is the "heavy" bit between the two thresholds. This is where a lot of my sustained climbing efforts will be. FWIW, this is where I pulled it from: Link

I understand that stimulating adaptation related to lactate utilization is important for competitive cycling performance. But does this level of intensity still optimally stimulate the mitochondrial capacity and function adaptations that one seeks for general health and longevity? In that heavy zone, is one getting the lactate adaptation as well as the capacity and function adaptations? Or is one only getting the lactate adaptations?

As a type 2 diabetic, I'm very concerned with insulin resistance and am trying to utilize mitochondrial improvement to help rectify that. I find it frustrating trying to suss out just how I should optimally train for that however. I definitely want to improve mitochondrial capacity. And I'd have to assume that mitochondrial function would help as well. But is lactate utilization important to me? I've not run into anything that explicitly says that it would be. At the same time, one of the hallmarks of T2D is high resting lactate levels. Obviously, I don't expect you to be able answer this part definitively unless you possess medical training that I'm unaware of.

MoAlpha

Not my specialty, but I do have the medical letters after my name for what it's worth. From the clinical point of view, these distinctions are meaningless. Any aerobic adaptation will improve metabolism in type 2 DM. Elevated resting lactate is just a marker of the underlying aerobic impairment. As you probably realize, this stuff is about coaching strategies and marginal performance gains and has only tenuous support from controlled experiments in humans.

In a meta-analysis of studies of exercise effects on biochemical markers of mitochondriogenesis and function, exercise volume had far more effect on citrate synthase activity (more, better developed mitochondria) than intensity. Interestingly intensity seemed to drive mass-specific oxidative activity (mitochondrial function) selectively, but only at very high interval intensities.

The full text is here: https://link.springer.com/article/10...279-018-0936-y and the Empirical Cycling podcast recently discussed it.

Harold74

MoAlpha

Would you be willing to have an ongoing discussion with me regarding the intersection of insulin resistance and structured endurance training? I can't tell you how much I would enjoy that. My GP is a diabetes specialist and I have a diabetic nutritionist. Unfortunately, I've not been able to squeeze any particularly useful information out of either of them on this subject.

I fully understand that you're not a specialist in diabetes and that our discussion would not constitute any manner of doctor / patient relationship. Any discussion that I have with you might wind up just being a useful prelude to a discussion with someone who is a specialist in these things. I've actually considered flying down to Colorado and sleeping outside Inigo's office until he consents to having lunch with me. I want information that badly.

Ideally, we'd converse in a separate thread that I would create for this topic. That way, other people her might benefit from the conversation as wall. That said, if you'd prefer to discuss this privately, I'll take what I can get.

I have a ton of questions but wouldn't want to burn you out. If you could manage a response even once every 90 days, that would do me. I'm playing the long game with this.

MoAlpha

I suggest you post over in the "Training and Nutrition" sub-forum where this topic has been raised many times, and where you will get plenty of opinions, including from at least one other smart and well-informed poster who is managing their T2DM with training. My scientific and clinical background comes in handy, but I would never hold myself out as any kind of expert in exercise physiology or metabolism: I'm just learning this stuff along with everyone else. I will contribute anything I consider helpful, time permitting.

Harold74

Alright, I'll take another cruise through the T&N sub and see if there's anything there that I missed previously and might be able to use.

Thank you for your help here, truly.

MoAlpha

Start a thread. I'll post something patently inflammatory and it'll bring 'em all out.

Hermes

I see you have a Felt e-bike. If feasible, put power pedals on the e-bike and use the motor power to make up the differential power required to keep you in z2 when climbing. If the Felt ebike is unsuitable then get a new one such as one of the better Treks. Use what is available to keep you in the game.

Ignore the noise on forums about ebikes. Use yours as a training tool / bio hack to get the z2 that you need with the terrain that you have.

Smaug1

One thing that's not to be taken for granted is having a low enough low gear. My road bike (2023 Trek Domane AL3) has a 1:1 low gear and for the really steep, long hills, it's not low enough for my weight, power level and muscle endurance.

When I was shopping for gravel bikes, I was leaning toward some with single (front) chainrings, but my one experienced cyclist buddy told me to look out for that. Sure enough, a lot of those bikes have a 1:1 low gear or just under. He changed gearing on his favorite road bike that he takes to Colorado every year to have something like a 0.75:1 low gear.

I wound up buying a belt-driven gravel bike with internal gear hub (Priority Apollo 11) and it was not easy to calculate the low gear, but my feeling was that it was a bit lower than my Domane, but not low enough. I ordered a smaller front pulley and fitted that, and now it'll do nicely.

The other option, (which you will get flak for here in the General forum), is an eBike. I have several and I love them. They make it so you work as hard as you want to. You want to really hit it? OK, just turn the motor off and you're pulling a heavier bike around. Exhausted and the headwind just picked up? Dial in some boost and at least maintain some minimum speed of your choosing. There are several members in my club who have gone to an electric road bike (usually some level of Trek Domane+) and they LOVE them. They allow them to keep up with the younger group they've been riding with for years and years. Or to be able to ride with ANY group, not just the slow & moderate groups.