Atlas Shrugged

We are now at the point of being ridiculous. This thread was like arguing with a drunk before but now we have achieved a new low in Bike Forums dysfunction.

Moronic posts like this is why these forums are dying a slow miserable death. A vast majority of users are in their late 60’s or older and can’t navigate more modern social media discussion groups, leaving a few angry old men who irrationally yell at clouds. The foolish rants and opinions that exist only on these forums do not exist in the cycling community at large.

Who in their right mind can’t accept that gravel bikes are a distinct category of sport cycling. Take a Specialized Diverge or Niner RLT and deny that they are specifically built for a unique use case is bizarre. Go to any organized gravel event or ride popular gravel roads or paths and guess what you see “Gravel Bikes”. Will you see some dude with a cobbled together faux gravel bike sure but just like you find some guy running a marathon in jean cutoffs and converse all stars there will always be those people who are in no way representative of reasoned participants.

t2p

another great video

this looks like an *awesome* ride


BWR - California (Wafer) 2022


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PeteHski

These guys are just unwilling to move on and will never learn anything new. They have convinced themselves that the modern world is just a scam. So they end up bitter and cynical and think we are all fools for falling for “Big Bike Marketing”. They have a tendency to hate branding and anything that might be tailored to a specific use. The idea of a new bike segment to these guys is alien.

Maelochs

The hope for this forum is the discipline of the old guys who can actually accept change.

If I can avoid getting wrapped up with these atavists as soon as I see where they are going, they cannot go ... they need the traction generated by conflict. Sadly, usually my desire to "set things straight" just feeds them.

It will take time to change the habits of the people who use this site, but if negative and mindlessly contentious posts gain not response I think we might see fewer ... and if we ignore them, it really doesn't matter if they are there or not.

I have certainly done my part to drag stuff down around here, but to me that shows that the users have the capacity t change the atmosphere ... we can drag things back up.

Trakhak

Much of the C&V anger can be traced back to Grant Petersen's divisive us-versus-them marketing approach. Ironically, he came up with that primarily as a way to sell the pre-indexing shifters and derailleurs (and the brakes and other components from the same pre-indexing era) that distributors could no longer sell and were desperate to get rid of. He was able to buy huge quantities of those components for pennies on the dollar.

Then, of course, he had to figure out how to sell them. He could have taken the "Bargains Galore!!" tack and marked those components up just a bit, but there was more money to be made using the "The problem isn't you---it's them!" marketing technique. And people lap it up, of course, since, after all, he's sincere, or at least consistent in his rhetoric.

The "Their marketing is manipulative, so buy our stuff instead" marketing stance is highly effective, which is why Surly's marketing is almost indistinguishable from Rivendell's, but with just a bit less us-against-them and a bit more more hipster irony.

Yes, he's a visionary---he figured out that non-racer cyclists who felt vaguely out of touch with current tech would buy the old stuff if he made it cool to do so. Too bad he convinced them (probably unintentionally, to be fair) to despise the people who like newer tech. I'm sure Petersen is a nice guy, but I'll never forgive him for introducing unnecessary divisiveness into the cycling community.

My counterpoint to the Rivendell red state/blue state divisive message:

We all like riding bikes. Racers like riding their bikes. They're happy that C&V people like riding their bikes. (Some of them like riding C&V bikes, too.)

Racers don't despise non-racers. They don't judge you. (They might judge other racers, but that's irrelevant to the Rivendell party line.)

Enjoy your bikes, whatever they may be.

PeteHski

They don't even have to accept change. They simply have to realise that we are not all gullible fools for choosing modern bikes and components. Not talking bs about stuff that they haven't even tried would be another step forward. Some of them like to think they are "clever" for avoiding the hype.

Also worth noting that they are not all like this. There are some guys into C&V who do it gracefully and don't feel the need to pretend that anything newer is just a marketing scam. Some of them own both old and new bikes and don't have a chip on their shoulder.

PeteHski

He certainly seems to have tapped into that anger. But I think the "angry-old-man" is far more deep routed in modern society to actually blame him for it. I don't think he's very well known in the UK, but there are no shortage of UK cycling luddites snarking away at new tech. They are a small minority, but they can make a lot of noise. Back in reality when I go to events, the vast majority of people are riding modern bikes, mostly CF and a few modern metal frames. Disc brakes have now been widely accepted, although still plenty of guys on rim brakes simply because their bikes are a few years old. C&V bikes are a rarity on the road Sportive events I ride. I'm sure it would be the same story (probably even more so) at gravel events.

livedarklions

I'm pretty disgusted by the "there's no such thing" nonsense here, but let's not kid ourselves that all the absurd contentious behavior on bf is all coming from one direction. All you have to do on here to get attacked is suggest that you don't personally find any piece of technology useful. There's way too.much of lack of respect of others' personal opinions on both sides of the "debates" here.

So, let's make this simple--"I don't like or need gravel bikes", not trolling.

"There's no such thing, only marketing" is trolling because it implies that people who want to buy one are being fooled somehow.

Likewise, calling people names or denigrating their preferences because they say they don't want a gravel bike is trolling. Some of the people on this thread are toeing that line with their "obviously objectively superior" rhetoric.

Maelochs

We cannot control others. We can control ourselves. I favor troll starvation .....




..... in theory.

Trakhak

Yes. I should have specified that I was referring to the U.S. cycling scene. Adult cycling never went away in the U.K. the way it did in the U.S.

When I started racing in earnest in 1964, there were maybe 15 or 20 people in New Haven riding drop bar tubular tire racing bikes. We all knew each other and knew most of the other racers in Connecticut, and almost all of us were teenagers (except the Yale cycling team---some of them were grad students).

And, from what I gather, New Haven having even that many racers was unusual. What I remember reading back then in USA Cycling, the predecessor to Bicycling! magazine, is that there were maybe at most a dozen cities nationwide that regularly hosted bike races. In the mid-1960s, the membership of the ABLA totaled something like 1,500 racers.

Very different from the unbroken continuity of the U.K. tradition of adults riding bikes for utility riding, commuting, touring, and racing into and beyond the middle of the 20th century.

As for the curmudgeonly aspect of "in my day . . . " U.K. grumblers, the origin might have been in the regulations regarding racing there in the 1950s having been inflexible to a degree that's hard to credit now. No mass start racing---only time trials. No advertising on the bikes (possibly explaining why companies came up with hard-to-miss trademark designs, such as the curly stays associated with Hetchins bikes). Not surprising that anti-whippersnapper sentiment is rife there.

PeteHski

There has always been an active bike club scene over here. I grew up in Manchester in the 70s/80s and hung around a great shop owned by ex-racer Harry Hall. The shop is still there I believe, now run by his son. Very traditional, old-school approach until Team Sky appeared on the scene armed with "science". That really changed the way club riders thought about both their equipment choices and training. Now our roads are full of keen amateur cyclists on modern bikes and the Sportive scene is very active and surprisingly competitive. The gravel scene has also taken off, but it's not something I've got involved with yet. I only currently ride road and mtb single track.

Herzlos

Out here the pavement is often rougher than some of the trails!

So I tend to use my gravel bike as a comfortable road bike when I'm not in a hurry, I haven't been on sections before, I know it's a bit rough or I want to include some off-road into the route.
The road bike only comes out when it's somewhere I know isn't going to shake my teeth out.

big john

I've never raced. I've been a club rider for 33 years and have ridden with racers, young racers, old racers, even a few pro racers. I'm quite fredly, don't look like a racer and can't climb like one.
Yet I've been accepted by them and even been to their homes for dinner and teased on the road and made to feel like I was part of their tribe. Some of the best people I've met have been bicycle racers. Trackies, road racers, and mountain bike racers.

When I rode off road motorcycles it was similar. A community of welcoming, helpful people. Just because my machine was older and more beat up and they were on the latest wonderbike didn't matter.

There is a dirt route I have been riding since about 1990. It's not technical but has a ton of climbing and some bumps and ruts. When people first started appearing on gravel bikes I was skeptical. How could these road bike looking things work up there? They can and do. I met some people riding these things at high speeds on the dirt. Got dropped by young women just like on the road. Became a believer when some friends got them and I joined their rides on my mountain bike.

I'll be 69 years old in a few weeks. I don't have a gravel bike but I did borrow one once for a short time and I could see the potential. I actually think I would be better off on a lightweight hardtail on the dirt but I would really love to try a carbon fiber Topstone or similar bike which was fitted to me. For mixed surface rides a drop bar makes sense. I've ridden mountain bikes on the road quite a bit and I'm not aerodynamic in the best case so flat bars are frustrating when trying to go fast.

Eric F 

This is a sensible, rational, reasonable, and open-minded post. Are you sure you're in the right forum?

big john

Actually, I hate everyone and all things. Now get off my lawn!

terrymorse 

As one of the BF old guys, who used to ride his road bike with skinny tires off road, I would have been happy to have the extra traction of a gravel bike tire.

I think this ragtag bunch would have liked some slightly fatter tires, too:


Haul Road, Santa Cruz Mountains, ~1981 (photo by Jobst Brandt)

That guy with the mustache is Tom Ritchey, who makes gravel bike frames now.

staehpj1

So just as an aside... I have a 1990 rigid Cannondale that I raced back in the day. It currently has drop bars and brifters in it. I also have a good bit newer hard tail mountain bike. I ride the newr hard tail daily. Most of the trails I ride have a lot of sharp edged bumps (roots) so the front suspension is nice. Otherwise either the old rigid mtb or a gravel bike would really be nice. I could choose different trails that suited a gravel bike better, but these trails are nice and I can ride directly from the house. I am thinking about riding the Great Plains Gravel Route when it is finalized and either bike would probably be at home to some degree, but I'd likely use the 3800 mile ride as an excuse to treat myself to a new gravel bike.

Eric F 

N+1 is always the right choice.

Hermes

As this thread winds down, I remembered that I rode a couple of sections of the Strada Bianche during a cycling camp that I attended in 2015 in Tuscany, IT. I brought my Cervelo R5 with 25mm Continental 4000s tires because 95% of the camp would be on smooth pavement. Our base camp was located right next to a flat section of the Strada Bianche so often we started a ride on the gravel.

Here is a GCN video that compares two Willier bikes - road and gravel. . I agree with GCNs take on the bikes and most importantly the tires. The 25mm tires I had were too narrow and my skill on gravel too little to make riding the Strada Bianche fun.

Cycling in Tuscany is amazing and if one goes, having a bike that accepts wider tires will make the Strada Bianche accessible and fun. And Tuscany is equal to or more beatiful than the clips in the video.

I own a Specialized gravel bike.

prj71

Ha!! Coincidentally I do ride a 54.

The bike I posted in the pic earlier I did use it once for a 47 mile gravel race and I've also done a 100 mile gravel race with my fat bike.

prj71

I'll disgree with this. Gravel bars are flared out for better control of the bike on loose gravel, downhills, corners, bumpy sections etc. much better than using road bike bars so that make it a gravel specific handlebar.

And if you are like a lot of people that like to bike pack and it's mostly done via gravel roads...then having a gravel fork where you can mount water bottles, sleeping bags or other items becomes a thing. As well as a gravel bike frame that has lots of mounts for items you may want to carry. So yeah there are gravel specific parts depending on what you want to do with the bike.

Maelochs

There are no Specialized gravel bikes. Read the thread.

"Strade Bianchi" is Italian for "We don't do fads". Not many people know that.

I didn't know Willier was Italian. I figured Belgian or something ......

Maelochs

Interesting and very enjoyable video. Answers a lot of questions with actual experience. Not "science" but also (IMO) acceptable as real information.

Jughed

I ride a very low rolling resistance set of tires on my CX bike, Specialized pathfinders... they have a 3/8"+/- solid rubber center section and treads on the sides. I can't say my road bike is much faster on pavement, and I set many PB's on the CX bike. Offroad the CX bike tires are worlds better than my 28mm road tires - worlds better.

Ole Ollie was using some agressive tread - they could have had even better results with better CX tires.

Hermes

Have you ridden the Strada Bianche?