unterhausen

It's all about what you have trained. In general, you could train yourself to go faster on a drop bar bike than an upright comfort bike. But if all your training to go faster is on an upright comfort bike, you will be faster on that bike.

One time I was about a half mile from home and a guy on a hybrid pulls in front of me and gives me the look. I was tired, but there was no way I was going to ignore that. Well, I never caught him. He sat very upright too, not like when you see mountain bikers pushing hard in a bent over position.

Road Fan

I don't think I'm disputing you. I don't think I ignored any of what you said. Most of what I've read is about road riding and road fitting, because that's what I ride. I am much more comfortable when I bend at the hip. Read the notes on Peter White's site about setting up a good bike fit, and go through Steve Hogg's site. Then you'll have a fuller picture of what I'm noticing.

I also think your description of energy versus power is very good - glad to see a good application of basic physics in this.

Road Fan

If you look at how this position works out on a road racing, touring, or audax bike, the rider will be bent forward from the hip, typically 45 degrees plus or minus a good margin. But the butt and hence the saddle must move backwards. The butt setback could requre the bars to move back as well.

In my experience added arm force can significantly improve my sense of power. I don't use a power meter so I don't know if I'm really making more watts.

Road Fan

Yes, one guy at least said the body weight is the most you can give. I think you can get a little more if you also pull up or back on the handlebars. Subjectively I think it helps a lot.

zandoval 

For me when I could negotiate a steep climb I found it better to be over the bars hands on the front of my break levers and tip toes in the pedals. That is where I was stretched and my chest was above the front axil.

(Now days a steep climb is an exercise in futility... Yep)

terrymorse 

The negative trade-off for moving forward on the saddle is a smaller knee angle. This actually reduces the force you can put into the pedals. It's the equivalent of doing squats from a low starting position.

The stronger position for climbing is with your hips pushed back on the saddle, which opens the knee angle and allows more force to be applied to the pedal.



Proper seated climbing form, from us.humankinetics.com

terrymorse 

Drop heel, yes. And sit back on saddle, and sit more upright with hands on tops.

That position makes climbing less fatiguing.

Leave the sit-on-the-saddle-nose trick to mountain bikers.

A classic endurance climbing position: seated comfortably in center-to-back of saddle, hands on tops, elbows bent, chest open and forward, heels down, head up, eyes looking up the road.



Terry Morse, Heartbreak Hundred (2006-ish)

livedarklions

Which is why that's the preferred method of moving refrigerators?!?!?

I produce a lot of power sitting on the seat of my upright bike. You literally have no clue here whatsoever.

livedarklions

Let's keep in mind that as you climb, the front wheel is higher than the rear, so if you're remaining seated, you're essentially "leaning" forward compared to your flatland riding position.

terrymorse 

I am not convinced that pulling on the bars in a steep climb is necessarily wasted energy. That pull helps engage your torso over the bars, which allows you to put more downward force into the pedals.

You've probably seen pro cyclists climbing steep grades, rocking their torsos side to side and downwards on each pedal down stroke. They are using the upper bodies to put as much force into the pedals as they can. They're also using their arms to move their torsos.

Just today, I went up a short but steep grade with a fairly high gear, in the saddle.

With hands in the drops and chest leaning over the bars, I was rocking my shoulders side to side, pulling gently back on the bars on each pedal stroke. It felt powerful, and I made it to the top without dropping my cadence. I couldn't have done that without the use of my torso and arms.




Watch this cyclist use his upper body to climb a super steep grade:



Credit: GCN

ofajen

Pulling up on the bars allows you to expend more energy and do more work, because you are pedaling through the same distance with more downward force. The pull is, of course, necessary so you don’t don’t push yourself back off the saddle.

Otto

livedarklions

I realized today, and I think this video bears me out, that I'm pulling on the bars in part (at least) to counteract the sway in my hips as I climb. Definitely helps generate power.

rydabent

There are thousands of post on pedaling in circles. Yet the more or less horizontal position I have on my trike seems to end up in pretty much a push pull situation.

I have no proof but it seems to me that this push pull actions allows me to put out a lot more power that I did on an upright position on a DF bike. It could also be acquiring "recumbent legs" after all these years on bents. It has been 16 years on bents.

livedarklions

Really a different question than the op because, as you point out, it's not the same pedalling motion. You're right that you can produce more power in the flat than you would on a dd frame bike, but you can't "recruit" gravity by standing on the pedals which is really the only power advantage a dd frame has. You're also developing muscles somewhat differently than you would on a dd bike.

burnthesheep

A recumbent makes a primary component of the discussion null......hip angle. It's wide open. Additionally I would assume the seated position is superior for delivering power without relying on as many supporting core/arm muscles also (but I'd let you tell us that, as that's an assumption).

So part of it is that you're already in a far superior hip angle situation one way or another. As stated before, often a primary reason folks make a lot less power on their TT bike than their road bike. And a primary driver of UCI rules against TT bikes.....prevent TT bike riders from adopting a prone-recumbent position. Folks who "get" that tend to understand TT bike fit and do well with it as you understand that if there's rules against it, that's what your ultimate goal in that fit is..........get as close within the rules as you can to a prone recumbent position.

indyfabz

A classic endurance climbing position: seated comfortably in center-to-back of saddle, hands on tops, elbows bent, chest open and forward, heels down, head up, eyes looking up the road, arm warmers 2/3 of the way down, morning paper sticking way up from jersey pocket, mini frame pump, dirty, mismatched water bottles and different length valves with different color caps.


FIFY

njkayaker

Bobbing his upper body up-and-down isn't helping him. He get more benefit, with less energy expenditure, keeping his upper body stable.

Everytime his body drops, there's less pulling on the bars and less weight for him to pedal against.

In the usual case, one's pedal force is limited by body weight. If you push too hard, you lift yourself up.

You can add more pedal force by pulling on the handlebar.

Rocking torsos side-to-side is a means of moving the body weight over the pedals. Or a result of using the bike as a lever (or blending both things).

At a low cadence, one can use the bike as a lever by pulling fairly forcefully on the opposite side across the bike.

terrymorse 

Thanks, Style Cop. ;-)

But you forgot to mention "stem not flipped".

BTW not the morning paper. The course route sheet.

The mini-pump came in handy. I flatted twice in that King of the Mountains series.

terrymorse 

Yes, it absolutely is. It's putting more force into the pedals at the top of the pedal stroke, right where he needs it the most to keep from stalling out.

Sit on the edge of a chair with your feet on a bathroom scale, leaning forwards. Note the reading on the scale.

Now rock your torso forward and back. Notice the scale reading rises substantially.

njkayaker

No, it's just dropping the weight forward of the pedals because he's breaking at the hip.

If he's pulling his body down with his arms, then that force isn't available for the feet to push against the pedal.

He might get a small advantage when the upper body bottoms out.

But it's much less effective than pulling on the bars and keeping is weight stable and over the pedals.

"Rocking" seems to be moving side-to-side (which isn't the same). The person in the video isn't moving much side-to-side. He's bobbing (quickly bowing), breaking at the hip.

The bobbing feels like one is doing something but it isn't making the climb easier.

terrymorse 

Small advantage? You wouldn't say this if you've climbed a very steep grade in the saddle, where it's a full out effort just to keep the pedals turning.

A bobbing upper torso can make the difference between turning pedals and stalling out. Anyone put in that situation adopts the behavior naturally.

njkayaker

I've climbed steep grades.

It might be the only thing you have left. But that doesn't mean it's a good technique.

If the bobbing thing was such a great technique, it would be recommended in things written about climbing technique.