georges1

Well seen on campy's website today , campy super record, campy record, campy chorus, campy centaur are all available in mechanical non disc brake versions.Shimano today's version of Dura Ace, Ultegra and 105 are all electronicDI2 and with disc brakes. 105 DI2 is here , so unless you go with a 10 or 11 speed older shimano group you can still go mechanical.

terrymorse 

The Y2K bug was not a hoax. Tons of labor hours went into fixing that bug, which is why things did not go bad on 2000-01-01.

PeteHski

And there's a LOT of irrelevant chaff in this thread.

PeteHski

A couple of realities:-

1. A custom steel/ti/alu frame of whatever cost is not going to be competitive against a modern carbon frame. It's going to be heavier, weaker, less aero and less comfortable. It would be a totally pointless exercise for racing, especially at the pro level where the riders really don't give a monkeys about retro gear. For those who insist on spending a fortune on slower retro-styled bikes using outdated tech and materials, there are plenty of boutique builders out there.

2. So it's "only" 16 years since carbon frames have totally dominated the TDF. This year it will be 17 and so on. If any other frame material was competitive we would see it in action. It's a bit like F1 motorsport. Carbon chassis have totally dominated since the early 90s. Even lower level F3 cars were all using carbon chassis by the early 90s. Nothing else has been considered ever since and that's how it is with competitive bikes today. The bike industry was actually quite slow in adopting carbon and then slow to use it efficiently. It's actually a very conservative, relatively slow-moving industry. Tennis racquets went carbon in the early 80s. I still have fond memories of my Dunlop Max 200g and how much of a game-changer that was compared to wood or alu framed racquets of the time.

bruce19

I've ridden both. Either is fine IMO. I happen to prefer mechanical. For the same reasons that I still drive manual cars. I like being involved.

PeteHski

Fair enough. I have to say I quite like the "mechanical" click of SRAM 1x mtb triggers, but mechanical floppy brifters not so much, especially for front shifting.

smd4

It’s called an “analogy.” Can’t help it if you don’t understand.

And we’re not talking about “advantages.” Unless we’re talking about the one where “modern” bikes will be in the bin in 20 years but mine will still be on the road.

GhostRider62

Lemond rode a carbon frame in 1986, I saw it with my own eyes. I also had a carbon frame in 1986, it was 17 pounds more than 5 pounds lighter than the obsolete 22 pound steel bike it replaced. If I am not mistaken, Lemond won the Tour in 1986.

I really wanted to buy the Lemond 8 that he is building in the USA but it still is not ready for launch. Oh, it is carbon and has electronic shifting but he is giving the choice of an integrated cockpit or separate carbon stem and separate carbon bars. I love flat aero carbon bars, they reduce vibration while spreading it over a larger surface area of your hands. No chatter.

GhostRider62

My 1992 Kestrel carbon with 7400 brifters is in the same place as my 1972 Masi GC with DT Campy Record. Hanging in the garage. Unused and unloved. Both absolutely suck compared to modern bikes.

Sy Reene

Hard to 'see' the tech improvement over the last 20 years

PeteHski

Was 2007 a particularly low-tech year?

PeteHski

Lemond was always a tech-minded guy. One of the first to really see the benefit of marginal gains. The Lemond 8 looks awesome. I wouldn't personally pay that sort of money for a bike, although it's not out of line with high-end mainstream brand bikes.

Lombard

I'm pretty sure that was a joke, bit maybe not.

smd4

Hoax? You're probably too young to know.

smd4

Ford doesn't make any more Model T parts. Locomotive manufacturer Baldwin doesn't exist. And yet it's possible to keep Model Ts and Steam Locomotives operational. In other words, other companies will step up to fill any void.

hevysrf

I would say that comfort is subjective and the weight difference would not be more than a water bottle or two. The strength difference that is important in a 1000 hp 250mph race car is just not significant at 500 watts and 40 mph. And even if carbon fiber is the grail of bike racing it may not be the best idea for mass produced consumer bikes.
I don't have the stats for TDF winners, are they always the lightest competitors? My wife has remarked on several occasion that they invariably have very big noses.

PeteHski

Only a few years ago (2019) I rode my friend's Circa 2002 Project One Trek Madone out in the hills of Nice. It honestly rode like crap compared to my off-the-shelf 2019 Tawainese Giant Defy. It was a bit of an eye-opener to be honest as I don't recall those older bikes riding so badly back in the day. It was harsh, twitchy and noodly all at the same time. Gear shifting and braking were archaic. Handling was terrible. The complete opposite of my humble Defy, which is absolutely rock solid on high-speed descents and way more comfortable.

GhostRider62

That is what I ultimately paid for my new bike. I probably would have bought a Trek Emonda SLR in 62 or possibly a 60cm but was quoted at least a year to get one, sight unseen and no test ride. Any easy $14,000 pass. The Lemond 8 at $12,500 considering the entire offer such as access to 4 days at the Tour and doing a group ride with him.....is a bargain. My only quibble on my new bike is the SRAM 48/35 and 10-28. Shimano 53/39 and 11-30 makes more sense to me.

smd4

"Bit?" I see what you did there.

GhostRider62

What kind of gets me are posters who voice strong opinions against technology that they have not owned or have not spend some thousands of miles on.

I was going to post several different quotes from Lael Wilcox (she is an ultra endurance champ racer winning lots of races and setting records) where she basically says mechanical eventually gives her hand fatigue and pain, which is why she likes electronic. The lateral force needed to shift the old SRAM mechanical shifters might not seem like much initially but do over and over on long hilly rides and your medial and ulnar nerves will start to moan.

Trakhak

Liked!

But for those who may not know: the organizers of the Tour change the route every year, so comparisons such as that represented in the average speed/year graph are close to meaningless for that reason alone.

Some of the many additional variables that render comparisons difficult: total Tour distance per year, proportions of kilometers ridden on flat terrain versus mountains versus time trials, sophistication of doping versus that of doping controls, improvements in training methods, arrival of power meters, extreme versus mild weather conditions.

And that's just the Tour. The Giro d'Italia has since come to resemble the Tour de France, with riders working hard from the gun, but in years past, the (predominantly Italian) cyclists racing the Giro often spent all but the last 60 to 90 km or so ambling along at a pace that would not have troubled the average fit U.S. cyclist.

GhostRider62

Although I can get all teary eyed over my leather Super Tacks and wooden Koho (hockey skates and stick), all modern skates and sticks are carbon fiber.

A carbon frame is cheap to make, they just price it into the stratosphere.

If you mean Walmart level consumer bikes, I agree. Tig Alu is probably the best bet for cheap kids bikes. But a good lugged or tig welded quality steel frames were never cheap and never were.

No they are not always the lightest competitors who win the TdF. The winners generally have towards the best W/Kg when climbing and the highest W/m^2 on time trials AND the best team. Bike weight is no longer relevant.

Lombard

Those older Trek OCLV bikes have a tendency to be "noodly". My 2007 Pilot is like that. Not a nice feeling and why I moved on to a 2014 Synapse Carbon.

elcruxio

That's actually a really good point. I can't really see that with Shimano. Then again I don't do ultra distance. But Sram double tap can really get pretty stiff especially with stronger rear mechs.

smd4

Utter nonsense.