EjustE

Pretty much but with a bit of more relaxed geometry (and got to check on the BB height for those). I'd probably have to compromise on this partially (likely, the lugs part, which will cut my cost about 15-fold.) because I was this afternoon at Spectrum Cycles (dropping something for a repair & paint) and had the touring bike frame discussion and looks like I am looking around $5K for the frame, if I go that way; but they do make amazing work, including custom integrated front racks (plus they have an 8 month waiting list for custom steel). Really cool place and really worth the drive. Jeff Duser makes his own lugs now, just checking those out is worth the trip (they are about 15 minutes from Trexeltown)

nikkorod

I'm in that area all the time for work. I'll have to stop by.

bobbycorno

Sounds like to need to talk to Lennard Zinn (zinncycles dot com). He can set you right up with long cranks and a frame to match.

SP
Bend, OR

bobbycorno

Really? The tubing mfrs have rewritten the laws of physics? Used to be that for a given cross-section, all steel alloys had the same stiffness and weight. To be specific, the density and Young's modulus are the same, regardless of the alloy. The diameters and wall thicknesses now available allow builders to make lighter and/or stiffer FRAMES, but the steels have the same stiffness and weight as 531, Columbus SL, or French sewer pipe. It's basic materials science.

SP
Bend, OR

EjustE

TIG welding and Boulder, CO might be deal breakers

unterhausen

the newer steels aren't stiffer for a given cross section, but with a few exceptions, would be built with a larger cross section. The higher strength gives better dent resistance than the older steels.

old's'cool

I will agree better dent resistance for the same wall thickness. If the wall thickness is reduced to take advantage of the higher strength, well, then, it depends...

Fred Smedley

So buy a old Ritchey MTB and call it good!

MacCruiskeen

This is not too far off https://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/pr...products_id=43

There are plenty of good used bikes out there, but finding the frame you want in the size you want might still be a challenge.

Christian.

OP, here is my experience/input on the matter. I am working with a steel bike builder out of Austin, TX to build next year's criterium bike. I will not ride carbon fiber bikes because I feel they are simply landfill. I've found no way to recycle them and my understanding of those frames is that they will eventually fail...more landfill.

I appreciate the options I was offered for building a custom frame and the price was very reasonable for a custom steel frame, around $1200. I have not received the frame yet, but I should have something within my hands in a few months here. It was explained to me that they/I have the ability to choose from:
- tubing that can be made thinner in the center sections where they don't need the material
- aero/shaped tubing that can provide additional stiffness and aero benefits
- internal cable routing or not
- choice of BB designs, BB30, standard 68, etc.
- choice of headset design, integrated, 1 1/8" standard, etc.
- choice of a few different basic paint schemes
- choice to get stainless rear triangle (increase in price) so I can leave it exposed for a more classic look
- different rear wishbone designs for different quality of rides

These are all options that convinced me to purchase a new steel bike over restoring an older frame. I currently have an older titanium bike that flexes too much in the BB area...this simply feels uncomfortable when we get on it during sprints. I ride 180mm crank due to being a longer legged rider. I've specifically requested that this bike addresses that issue and allows me to run the longer crank arms that I prefer.

After some number crunching and some fancy bits (read $), I should be able to get the full bike in the 15 lb. range as well...plenty light IMO.

I ride a 1975 Raleigh Gran Sport as well. If I remember, I will post some comparisons between the two. I will ride the bikes to a point where I should be able to perceive any subtle differences. If not, so be it...I won't be ashamed to speak the truth. In the end, I still get a custom fit bike, painted how I like, and hand-built by an artisan.

I hope that helps with another perspective,
Christian.

desconhecido 

The Bob Jackson is a nice bicycle -- I have one that I bought in 2003. I don't know how high the bottom bracket is, I suppose I could measure it. Will tomorrow. Otherwise, the only requirement that it does not meet is the one for lightness. The BJ touring frame (mine must be one of the last 531 frames) is not light.

RFC

I don't think anyone has mentioned Serotta or Land Shark -- premier manufactuers of steel frames. Me, I like high quality bikes, whether old or new, steel or titanium. Lugs are OK, but not the end all be all. And I have to say my TIG welded Land Shark cyclocross frame has the smoothest and most beautiful welds you are ever going to see. Also, I like trying different bikes, again, whether old or new. I'd love to build up a Gunnar roadie or cyclocross. And, slopping TT geometry is nothing to be scared of. Broaden your horizons.

Hey, I have a '94 Serotta Colorado TG for sale if anyone is interested.

NightShift

Generally good questions (imo) and a poor answer.

In additional to frequently (but not always) saving money the do it yourself route allows you to get something that more closely fits your wants and needs.
Depending on what compromises you're willing to make (or, more to the point, not willing to make) this can be far more expensive. And this philosophy favors custom at least as much as used/vintage.

Add in that I (like many people here, I'm certain) don't like seeing things go to waste, especially works of great craftsmanship and art, and the scale slides in favor of classic and vintage.

robatsu

I'd like to observe that the economic rationale, considered apart from other aesthetic/philosophical factors, for going vintage steel is not as overwhelming as it was 5-10 years ago. First, there are a lot more offerings in steel now, both from the cottage industry and the bigger vendors. This certainly has created some price competition where you can get an at least decent frame for USD 500. Similarly, ebay, CL, and style has pushed up the prices for old steel to where the once relatively common event of high end bikes going for $20 at a garage sale/thrift store are much, much harder to find.

Not to say that there isn't a price advantage, but I'd be a lot more likely to consider new production now than 10 years ago based upon the now narrower price differential between old and new and the value of my time searching out a cheap old bike that is more or less what i want.

I remember thinking many times back then that I'd have to be nuts to shell out for new steel when all these nice old bikes were around for a pittance. But I don't feel that way anymore, at least not as strongly.

Kommisar89

Having "been there, done that" I can give you my perspective on it - back in the 70's I had bought my last new bicycle. I rode it until the early 80's then parked it and eventually put it in storage at my parents' house. Time passed, I didn't ride at all until around 1990. I got the old bike out of storage, cleaned it up and gave it a tune up and away I rode until getting into an accident in 1996. It just so happened that I purchased a 1984 Peugeot from a Salvation Army sale for $5 so when I healed up I set that bike up and kept on trucking...er, riding. Then I moved to Colorado in 1999. The hills and the altitude here damned near killed me. I couldn't push that 42x21 gear up the hill from my office to my house without stopped several times to rest. Eventually I parked it again. I knew you could change out gearing but the LBS didn't carry much in the was of parts for at that time 15 year old bikes with ancient components. I didn't know about C&V on bikeforums.net or about vintage parts on eBay and frankly I wouldn't have know what to look for if I had. I didn't know about special French sizing for bottom brackets or what to do with Helicomatics hubs. It was just an old bike that seemed very hard and probably very expensive to upgrade into ridable condition. But I didn't like the looks of all the aluminum bikes I saw and had heard that aluminum had all sorts of durability issues so I wanted a steel bike. Preferably Italian with Campagnolo components. After all, when I had last bought a new bike that was the best stuff out there. I had completely missed the Campy vs. Shimano thing. Anyway, I found an attractive Bianchi with a full Campagnolo group and was able to special order it in Celeste as it should be. It was TIG welded but at the time I didn't know anywhere to get a lugged frame.

Only a couple of years later I got into C&V and began really learning about where to find old bikes and how to upgrade them and today if I were faced with the same choice I might make a different decision. I still regret that my old Peugeot PGN10 ended up in the city dump because I had no idea how to upgrade it into a useable modern bike.

GV27

Mercian. They'll do everything you want as far as braze-ons and geometry in 853 for ~ $1500. Super fancy lugs a couple hundred more. 953 and polished stainless lugs a couple hundred more yet......a good value all around though.

Andrew F

Old vrs. new steel? I have a few vintage steel lugged bikes that I enjoy very much but I also bought a new steel bike this year only because I wanted a new bike, thought it looked cool, had the money and envision handing it down to one of my children. The reality........ it was an impulse buy that I'm enjoying very much.

RobbieTunes

Not much to say, but I'd take that Prestige frame in a half a heartbeat.

I like a lot of the modern steel. I just like a lot of the C&V steel better.

We go on a 50-70 mile ride, the steel bike gets a few looks, and you know they wonder a bit.
When it's done, and you've pulled your share at 20+ and then some, they understand, sort of.
They still wouldn't buy one. To a lot of people, an old bike is an old bike. I don't mind that a bit.

Now, if the local Paramount OS-5 at $250 was just a 56....

wrk101

Well, the $20 deals are mostly gone, but for $200 to $300, you can find a really nice vintage steel bike. That price is well below anything new. I think the values of used and vintage bikes are still compelling. The gap is still huge. My four steel keeper bikes combined cost what Trek wants for a new SORA equipped road bike, and all of them have better components. OK, I shop around quite a bit, and I'm not shy about turning a wrench. But that's part of the fun.

Where new really starts making sense is if you need unique proportions, so you really need something custom built. Most of the "deals" aren't on fleabay, although one of my bikes did come from ebay.

84 Lotus Classique
87 Schwinn Prologue
92 Trek 950
03 Colnago Master Lite

CPFITNESS

Undamaged steel is Undamaged steel. Its the perception that drives the value but the function is what matters to me. I spent 30 bucks on my 83 nishiki century. I ditched 75% of what was on it. Basically I kept the drivrtrain and replaced everything else. Made it a 14 speed from 10 just finished it last night. I got the weight down to 25.4 from 32 (its a high ten steel frame) the verdict? The 350 spent on this product has given me an entry level drop bar bike for 1/3 of the cost of a new bike at the lbs while only lacking a couple of.modern features. But the foundation is the steel frame and the ride quality is great. So in the end I'm all about rebuilding from old steel. I'll prob ride this for a bit then look for some kind of cromoly steel frame to put the parts on.

Loose Chain

When I started this thread I was really not interested so much in economics but instead the structural, ride, performance etc reasons for new steel vs old steel. I think it is somewhat telling that the thread turned into mostly an evaluation of new vs old based on price. LOL, kind of funny really.

One advantage to going new, I can buy brand new stuff to fit a brand new bike instead of digging through dumpsters and eBay. The 126 vs 130 spacing is the big driver for me if I were to go with a new steel frame perhaps more than anything else. My brain gets tired real fast trying to figure out which crank and which chain and which derailleur system will work with my 126mm bikes and then there is the issue of where to buy threaded freewheels and 5/6 speed chains?

big chainring 

Interesting. I went to the local bike shop and asked for a basic 5 speed chain and they had one for $10. All I know is 120/126 spacing.
Parts are everywhere. Old amazingly nice wheelsets can be had cheap. Ebay has lots of 5/6 speed freewheels.

My bike knowledge is based on what I know from bikes I rode and worked on in the 70's. Wouldnt have a clue with brifters, compact cranks, and 10 speed "cassettes".
Just like I rode Criteriums not "crits".

The thing that I dont like on new bikes are the clearances are generally very tight. I like the old frames with generous amount of room for fenders and big tires, eyelets on fork ends,etc.

I'll say it all day long, a bike is a bike. Extremely simple mechanically. Very subtle differences between custom built super bikes and production made gaspipe builds.
Whats the saying, "I'd rather ride a Varsity with Paramount wheels, than a Paramount with Varsity wheels".

tmh657

Not sure if a 1999 Schwinn Peloton with 853 is new or old steel and I have not ridden an 853 frame bike. Any opinions on the Peloton? Research tells me it's TIG welded, came with an aluminum fork that should be replaced, (with carbon fiber I suppose). It also appears that one can be had for a reasonable amount for 853.

I ride a '89 Schwinn Circuit which I love but always look for something a little bit better. FWIW I didn't think this warranted a new thread.

cudak888 

Perfect fit, ideal geometry, no search, your color, brand new.

I'd say that pretty much sums it up.

-Kurt

Loose Chain

But see, I am not looking for basic or cheap, I want high-er end. My bikes were high end when I bought them and they had high end hollow pin chains etc, not cheap basic chains. This just as an example and this is where I can see a definite plus for new steel bikes, modern, high end components/parts are only as far away as your lds.