Koyote

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Umm…

You can parse the words “full advantage,” but it’s pretty clear that you’re contradicting yourself here.

But I’ll take you seriously, for the moment. I would suggest that you are dead wrong: Anyone can indeed take full advantage of a nice racing bike. If it makes a pro faster, why wouldn’t it make any old amateur racer faster? And again, if you’re going to parse the words “full advantage,” please tell us how you would measure that. (These are serious questions that I’d like you to address, rather than dismiss with some pithy remark) And again, none of this – none of the stuff you’re writing about – has anything to do with the thread’s premise.

terrymorse 

You made the general statement “previous systems”, right after listing what they were. Including non-integrated carbon bar+stem as the last “previous system”.

This last “previous system” is no cheaper than the integrated system, throwing cold water on your implication that there is this relentless trend towards more expensive components.

Atlas Shrugged

If riding for you, between getting ready, riding and cleaning up afterwards followed by going back on line posting in just over a hour, no wonder you view the sport and equipment different than most.

vespasianus

What the heck are you talking about?

vespasianus

I am starting to believe this. The race data does make that point pretty clear.

georges1

Well , I am not into 11-12 speeds shimano groupsets because of cable eating shifter issues and problematic bonded cranksets, I don't do disk brakes since they were irrelevant until 2015/2016 and none cared about them before. Dual pivot rim brakes offer very good stopping power on a road bike that if you chose dura ace or ultegra and not the skeletonized campy record or chorus rim brakes which is single pivot at the rear and dual pivot at the front. Electronic shifting,I haven't see any road bike riders nearby me using di2 or sram etap . Imagine the battery is dead and you are stuck in the not correct gear, it is just not worth it. For frames, it is a personal matter of preference. I will always prefer a high end steel or a high end aluminium frame which is hand made rather than a mass produced carbon frame which for me is barely comfortable ( I have riden on some carbon bikes and no it is not as comfy as steel or aluminium).The Dura Ace 7800 is my favorite groupset regarding road bikes, it was superbly designed, proven, sturdy and reliable. Price of spare parts for the Dura Ace 7800 are on the rise lately.

PeteHski

I get the impression you would talk yourself out of anything new. What carbon bikes did you ride out of interest?

spclark 

I've been kinda busy with work the last few weeks, missed having time to keep up with new threads here.

This one caught my eye this afternoon so in reply to your title question I have to ask: you priced a Bugatti Veyron or McClaren street ride lately?

Used to be you could spend a couple hundred thousand on super-fast, expensive and state-of-the (then) -art street vehicle. A Lotus Elan S2 was like $5,500 new, Shelby 427 Cobra was $7,000.

Now a 'used' original 427 Cobra in good shape runs maybe $2,000,000, an original Elan maybe $80,000.

I'm still riding my 1972 era $400 Motobecane road bike, weather permitting, never put a carbon-anything between my legs.

georges1

I rode the following carbon road bikes: Storck Scenario C 1.1, Giant TCR Advanced, Focus Izalco Max, Specialized S Works Tarmac SL5, Trek OCLV5900 and Merida Scultura. The one new thing I wouldn't mind have to own would be the Specialized Allez 40th anniversary frame made of Reynolds 853 built by Toyo Bikes in Osaka, in the past in the 80's some of the Specialized Allez were handbuilt in Japan using Tange tubing by Yoshi Konno , the founder of 3 Rensho ,a well known japanese bike brand. The Allez 40th anniversary frame is 6000$ alone.

PromptCritical 

My 1976 Colnago Super and '69 Alfa Romeo GTV have EXACTLY the right amount of electronics!

Eric F 

If that’s what’s EXACTLY right for you, cool. My preferences are different.

Maelochs

The cables don't break any more quickly ... thought they do need to be changed before they break all the way through. The bonded cranksets were a few hundred out of tens of thousands. And ... you can get a new one free of charge. Well, maybe you don't need discs ... the really fast descenders are using discs because the greater braking control lets them hit speeds which could nto --safely-- be achieved on rim brakes. personally, I only use discs on my rain/work bike and MTB, but I am not opposed to discs. Yeah, and break a shift cable and you are in the same boat. Of course, if you run lights and ride at night .... some of us are able to keep things charged and even have backups. [QUOTE=georges1;23207363] I will always prefer a high end steel or a high end aluminium frame which is hand made rather than a mass produced carbon frame which for me is barely comfortable ( I have riden on some carbon bikes and no it is not as comfy as steel or aluminium). [QUOTE=georges1;23207363] yeah, Bullstuff. I have to say, as a crossing point between cost, durability, and comfort, an AL frame with a CF fork and seat tube is about as good as it gets. But ... I have steel, aluminum, and CF bikes and if you cannot get cvomfortable on CF it is because you do not want to . Yeah ... never used 7800, but 6800 and 5800 are strong favorites of mine. I would certainly move on to DI2 in 105 or Ultegra though.

However, I have an open mind ... which gives me a range of options you don't allow yourself.

3alarmer

...for the moment, let's pretend you are actually open to discussion on this topic, and not simply trying to get into another long semantic argument...semantic argument seems to be your comfort zone.

A full race bike frame is designed with people in mind, who push them along at regular speeds of 25-28mph. Thus the "stiffer" frame, more aggressive geometry, and the aero profiling features on frame and wheels. There are several elements that come into play, when I say you're not going to take "full advantage" of such a bicycle. One is that you're not strong enough for the stiffer frame to matter much for your power input. they are laterally stiff, and vertically not nearly compliant enough for mere humans going any distance.

More important is that you're going along at slower speeds than the cat 1 racer crowd. So taking "full advantage" of the aero profiles is dubious, at best. But certainly given your abilities (as an older rider, at whatever level of the sport you now enjoy), you can buy some performance advantages at the bike store. If it makes you feel any less put upon, I can't take full advantage of my steel full race frames, either. I know this because I've ridden some of them, on and off, for the past 20-25 years, and I know what I could do on them, versus what I can do on them now, similarly equipped.

But I can still "appreciate" them, for what they are. And I can still ride on them. How you've managed to concoct a semantic argument that equates "appreciate" with "take full advantage" (in use), is a mystery to me, but it must make sense to you. Like I said, semantic argument seems to be your comfort zone. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to follow the logic chain on this one.

So no, you (an old racer) "going faster" is not taking "full advantage" of the top end race bike we're discussing...the expensive ones. But your argument on this will always return to your starting point, which is price is not that big a deal to you, and you want the "best" bicycle that suits your supposed needs. If "going faster" is one of those needs, which apparently it is, then anything that might help some is worth a try...you have discretionary funding for whatever appeals to you.

You want to measure it. OK, let me know when you can hang with the Cat 1-2 guys in your local scene, then get back to me. I concede those guys are probably able to use such a bike to full advantage, even if they're not racing professionally.
...

3alarmer

...so why go into this digression ? You and I both know it's in hope of finding something else you can tease out of my reply to use as another avenue of attack. Why not just find another outlet ?

Koyote

Semantics refers to the meanings of words, including collections of words (sentences, paragraphs, cause-effect claims, etc.). Here on the internet, communicating asynchronously and without the benefit of expression, gesture, and tone-of-voice, words are all we've got.

In my experience, people often make your complaint when they've been called out for making nonsensical or contradictory claims.

Like many of the C&V refugees who wander over here, you apparently don't understand how aerodynamics work -- specifically, how drag impacts riders at different speeds. And, as usual, you are personalizing the argument -- which is weird, especially since I don't own (and have never owned) a "top end race bike." And given your statements above, I think you'd be pretty surprised by the bikes that I do ride. But it'll suffice to merely state that you are waaay off-base.

I've always found it weird that the C&V fans (some of them, anyway) seem to feel threatened when people point out that newer bikes are better in some ways. I mean, look at how this thread devolved into a huge argument over that very question!

You're the one who keeps dragging the argument in this direction.

Trakhak

In what way were those Campy Record or Chorus rim brakes lacking? I've seen them but never used them.

base2 

There is no reason that a headset or seatpost must be proprietary. It's just that some are. There is an entire ISO number system defining the various attributes a headset conforms to. Just specify Zero Stack, integrated, or external cup, and the bearing or crown race diameter and any headset with those attributes will fit.

I think the hurdle is when it comes to modern times,the reality is manufacturers think and act on a global scale. This necessarily means a minimum production run of millions of units over a decade or more just to make the profit& loss numbers work properly. This does not reward being an outlier. And there are International Standards Organizations for exactly this reason. The health and relevance of the industry depends on it

Of course certain not ISO things are proprietary like the Trek seat mast or the Specialized Future Shock or Shimanos' centerlock brake standard. But more often than not there are generic equivalents to retro back to industry standard. Often times supplied by the OEM themselves if not a 3rd party.

The Trek seat mast for example is more about removing variables in how the seat tube interacts with the seat stays and top tube for proper suspension/shock absorbtion than it is about customer gouging on aftermarket sales. It more driven by frame design than anything. It's not like it is a breakable part anyway, really. But it would be simple enough for a generic Origin8 or similar to make if there were a market for it.

Specialized Future Shock can be dummied out with this aftermarket replacement https://www.thebikesauce.com/product...gid-delete-kit (That I just searched for, just now.) But Specialized has also been pretty forthright with the repair parts and instructions should there ever be a problem. Brand value practically requires it.

Any actual innovation will become industry standard soon enough anyway. Suntours slant parallelogram or the Campagnolo derailleur hanger for example. I don't think there's that much to worry about.

The innovation of 3rd party inventors around the edges is actually one of the more interesting things to me. That is one thing I know will never go away.

3alarmer

... this reply contains absolutely no response to the information you requested from me, which was (let me make sure I have your exact words):

Note the use of the "Royal We" here, a worthy addition to a semantic argument.




.

...I have a very far removed memory of how drag coefficients are calculated. It's not something I did for a living. What exactly am I missing, when I say you can't go fast enough to take full advantage of this aspect of the design ? Certainly the rider's profile is the most significant factor in calculating total drag...which is why fairings are outlawed in competition. What am I missing? ...Here is a teaching moment for you.

Also, just as an FYI, I am not a "refugee". I have a passport, just like yours.


...no, quite clearly I am responding to your request:

And you have managed to tease out of it, some imagined personal attack, because you are, indeed, "any old racer".


...yes. And you spend a great deal of your time at the computer expressing this feeling. It's the same projection you just accused me of, isn't it ? Have I really come across on this issue as "feeling threatened" ?


...says the guy who initiated this digression. I guess the "moment" has passed.

Honestly, while I find your personal devotion to picking me out of the crowd as someone who needs to be used as an example of spurious C+V logical fallacy, you need to find someone else. People are beginning to talk.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

3alarmer

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...it's a shame I can't give this the attention it deserves outside of P+R.

genejockey 

Aerodynamics is not a question of GROUND SPEED, it's a question of AIR SPEED. I routinely ride into headwinds that add 10-15 mph to my air speed, even if my ground speed is only 15-20 mph. IOW, my air speed could be 35 mph. At times, I even go downhill into that same headwind at speeds up to 30 mph. So, "If you're not a racer, you're not going fast enough for aerodynamics to matter" is a nonsensical argument.

3alarmer

....not as long as ground speed also gets factored into the equation, it's not. Unless the wind is from behind you (which is very enjoyable, BTW), those things are additive quantities. Anyway, nobody (certainly not me) has made this claim:

This is what we call another strawman. The claim, as presented, is that lesser mortals are ill equipped to "take full advantage" of the design. I've been quite clear in stating you can buy some performance advantage at the bike store.

3alarmer

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...these threads remind me of the old Midnight Stoner Movie classic, "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes". You never really understand exactly what motivates the tomatoes, and they just keep rolling in from every direction.

Looks like another spectacular weather day, here in NorCal. You kids have fun, however you choose to spend the day. I'm finally back to about 90% of pre surgical status, so time spent in General Cycling is deducted from my remaining time on earth. The reward potential is poor in here, so decisions have to be made.
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Koyote

That's only one of the reasons why his argument is nonsensical.

georges1

They lack the smoothness and immediate bite of their shimano dual pivot counterparts also shimano introduced the dual pivot dura ace brake back in 1991 that was 3 years ahead campy which was proposing until 1994 not so efficient monoplaner single pivot brakes.

smd4

He used to start pissing matches with me too, but couldn’t take it and finally put me on ignore. I wish you the same good fortune.