livedarklions

Oh, let's not ignore the histrionic "make these modifications to your diet or die" stuff appearing in the same post as a casual mention of his active alcoholism. I believe the phrase was along the lines "I drink a lot of carbs because I'm an alcoholic."

AlgarveCycling

I missed that! So he's an alcoholic too?

An alcoholic with no friends who imagines his students want to emulate him...aw, no wonder he is here attention-seeking, poor guy.

So the Sake is indeed strong with this one. Explains a lot.

big john

Not to defend all of his assumptions but the taller head tubes he's thinking of may be those of so called "endurance" frames. A 58 Trek Madone has a head tube of 17.1cm and stack of 58 while a 58cm Domane is 19.5 and 61, respectively. So, yeah, the endurance frames are a little higher, at least in the Trek line, which seems to be the highest major brand.
I prefer a head tube of at least 220mm and stack in the neighborhood of 65cm, so what do I know? Maybe that's why I haven't lost the weight?

The other thing I was thinking is, if aero trumps all, and TT seeks the most aero, and he admits recumbents are the most aero, why doesn't he ride bent?

big john

Don't forget that ignorant newbies with wads of cash are going into bike shops with dreams of the TDF and they are steered to the highest priced bike in the store by the pimply faced kid working there. Don't get me wrong, that may happen on occasion but I think most people are going to do some homework.

As I wrote that I realized it is another of his contradictions. If they are pressured into a $12k S-Works Tarmac they will be on an aero bike, and not an endurance sled.

genejockey 

Nah. It's because you haven't lost the height.

But remember, his big thing is calling aero bikes 'unaerodynamic', so he's not talking about endurance bikes.

big john

At my age I've probably lost a little height.

As unaerodynamic as I am I guess I must be an outlier since I haven't quit in frustration after suffering in slowness for 40ish years.

genejockey 

Yes, but did you die?

big john

Not yet. They tell me it's inevitable, though. Maybe if I start riding with my butt higher than my head I can prove them wrong.

timtak

If this is true then I have made a big mistake and as you say my premise would be wrong.

I asked about this earlier in the thread, since I had been failing to find bikes with short head tubes, and was given the example of the Specialise Roub.... bike which a "Future Shock." The size of the head tube including future shock resulted in a total effective head tube about 2.5cm taller than my look and Trek which are less than 14cm in 54cm size.

Passing the buck a little, I also believed John Cobb when he said that makers have increased the size of head tubes.

Are headtubes in fact the same size as they have always been?

The sloping top tube of compact frames is not important, but it is my perception that the sloping top trend and taller head tube trend seem to go together in the (or my perceived) trend that head tubes are longer, and backs are more upright, in a comfort geometry.

I can't remember having mentioned saddle to bar drop. Getting a mini frame and using a long seatpost (e.g. as used by Marc Cavendish) seems to be one way of avoid the (or my perceived) trend towards un-aero bikes.

If the bikes are all as aggressive as they would always been then that would surprise me, and I would be wrong. If so I apologize in advance. I am sorry if this is the case.

Tim

njkayaker

You really should have checked this out before going off into deep weird conspiracy theory territory.

LarrySellerz

Go timtak go! You can whittle them down and win through attrition, don’t admit defeat now. Take a shwig

genejockey 

The Specialized Roubaix is not an Aero bike. It's an Endurance bike, with slightly more upright geometry. In addition, the Future Shock is just what is says - a shock absorbing fork/stem. Not directly comparable. Apples to apples,

The Specialized Tarmac SL7 is a Aero/Race Bike (Specialized having combined the two categories recently) with a HT length of 131mm in the 54cm size - shorter than your Look and Trek.

Similarly, the Canyon Aeroad, an Aero bike, in S (which seems to be closes to 54cm, with a 54.9cm TT) has an HT length of 126. Their Ultimate - a Race bike - has an HT of 130mm.

Trek's Madone and Emonda both have HTs of 131mm in their 54cm frames.

genejockey 

Much Ado About Nothing.

Mojo31

He lost 6 pages ago.

terrymorse 

Is it the low torso angle with the ground that reduces performance, or is it the low hip angle?

I've always assumed it was the hip angle, since it feels hard to put force into the pedals when your knee is very close to your chest. The TT bike position moves the saddle forward and higher: to maintain the hip angle while lowering the chest.

The folks at BikeFit aim for a 100º hip angle:

ofajen

Low hip angle, and the issues it creates.

Otto

timtak

I am not sure why I think that getting down low and riding in an aero position is such a good idea.

First of all it is my experience, especially recently. I read this thread, get on my bike, go lower and lower (the Trek stem was quite by chance but I am enjoying it) and faster and faster. Thank you. It is my experience that to get the most out of solo road bike riding, it is a good idea to get to as near to horizontal backed as you can because the speed (near to that of motorised transport) is really exhilarating and this encourages me to keep at it.

I think it is to do with self-efficacy. People like to feel that they are making an effect on the world. Infants like to move their arms and legs and those pendulum things suspended above their cots even more because one bash of the pendulum sends it swinging even more than they can move their arm. It provides leverage.

Someone mentioned going to a gym and using a block and tackle and it sounds like a counter argument (to mine) but it seems to me that perhaps, if someone set up Platinums Gym with life size/weight replicas of cars, trucks, sumo wrestlers, small dwellings, ships, large blocks of steel and stone attached to blocks and tackle this might be more motivating than simply pumping or lifting iron. The ability to leverage ones strength to hoist a truck etc into the air might result in more effort.

While many do enjoy the scenery and comfort, I find that warming the atmosphere with my chest parachute produces no perceptible change in the world, so I find it less motivating than going down low and going faster (even though more constricted, both in terms of movement and sight) to be more motivating and I recommend this to others.

Thank you also for the ad hominem regarding my consumption of alcohol. It is something I am ambivalent about. Perhaps bf will encourage me to drink less. Ooh, that would be good.

Tim

njkayaker

You went on and on that these "many" were going to die (due to a vast conspiracy). Now, it's OK if that's what they like?

genejockey 

To be fair, he will eventually be correct about them dying. Eventually.

big john

As a non-drinking alcoholic, one thing that helped me quit drinking was the love of friends. I was sick, bleeding inside, etc. but I was always one of the "I don't care if I die" drinkers. When I got sick, it occurred to me that I might not want to die but it was the caring of friends that made me feel like I should live. It was difficult but worth it for me.
There would have been no drinking less for me. All in or nothing.
If you're ok with it, party on Garth!

timtak

If bikes today aren't more relaxed then you are right and I am wrong. What bike is Robbie riding?

Haha

I remeasured the Trek and Look I have to be 131 (same as today's Madone) and 135 respectively. If people are not being sold relaxed frames then all well and good. If that is the case I am sorry for having accused bike sellers of selling people frames that encourage people to get fat and die.

Is Cobb misguided? He clearly says "these days" companies these days want you to be comfortable (or words to that effect).

Do those bikes have any bits that make the effective frame height taller?

Entry level road bikes tend to be more relaxed. I hope that purchasers are being told of the dangers.

Something is happening in America, the UK and less the rest of the world that is encouraging people to get fat and die.

If they fit, thin and just want to look at the scenery than that is fine. If they want to die then that is up to them. But if they come into the shop asking to be helped to fitness and the assistant sells them something that is "comfortable" then that would be be good.

I will bear that in mind. Thank you John
My thin 21 year old student went into a bike shop and was served a parachute bike.

What is Robbie's bike? It looks like a Tarmac. Cobb is putting the bars a lot further down. It works for me, Cobb and Robbie, but not for those posting to this forum.

Recently I read about someone, on the forum, who got so low to their bars that their nose might hit it. I tried that this morning and it seemed to be really good advice!

big john

Maybe your student should have asked for your advice?

I don't know what Robbie is on but it doesn't really matter if he can achieve the position he desires.

I think most of us understand the role of aerodynamics with regard to speed. We know a flat back will give the best results. The question is does it matter to most of us? It doesn't to me partly because I cannot achieve the flat back position. Never have, and now at 68 I am less flexible than ever.
I think recreational riders rarely get the flat back position and I think most of them don't care.

I also think the other posters here understand position more than you give them credit for and most of the crap they are giving you is about the Frankenbike you posted earlier.

timtak

I think it is a shame. It made me sad when he got it. I have tried to get in contact with him to ask about how his cycling went but I have received no reply.


If people are being advised that they can fit ˥ shaped stems to their bikes, and they re not finding any impediment from doing so (it seems to me that people don't like to ride "Frankenbikes") then all is well.


Great that you know.

I did not know. It took me a long time to work it out. It was not until I saw John Cobb's video, and he put the bars down by about 6cm that I had an epiphany, that I have been attempting to share with others because it worked for me so well. I don't think my student knew. I see loads of people riding around alone on bikes that seem to me to be made for airless group rides-- yes with that chest parachute. Frankenbikes. It seems to me that on these forums, people are recommending the bikes that the pros ride (because the pros know best, because of the prize money) when they are group bikes which are unsuitable for many (but not all) solo riders.

Maybe. I think quite a lot of people do want to get slimmer. That was my main motivation. And as I say above, warming the atmosphere was a lot less motivating than getting into a time-trial-on-a-road-bike-like position. Good news for me, though not for you, that I still want to share.


Frankenbike I think, at least may, depend on the trend. My first attempt at making a road bike for a solo rider, basing it on a time-trial bike, but with road bike bars, by pushing the bars way forward, and the seat too, worked for me, allowing me to get down to my high school weight (Now at 57 I have put some back on). To me it does not look like a monster, but a bike to which I am very grateful. A beauty bike that was designed to be different because solo road riders are different to both time-trial and group riding Pros.

This 13,000 bike below however, looks to me like a Frankenbike. Why is their space between the drops and the front wheel? Using only bent elbows in the drops is possible but one nice comfortable fast position is semi arms resting on the drops. With this bike the only way to get low is to use bent arms into the hooks. The head tube is the same apparently, so perhaps all it needs (?) is some deeper handlebars but the forks look taller.



Why all the air?

Frankenbike, apparently.

My Ride by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr

big john

Not everyone wants their drops at the top of the front wheel. In fact it's probably very rare for recreational riders. On larger frames it's more rare, I'm sure.
Here is my Seven years ago. I have since changed the bar for a shallow drop model.

t2p

I suffer from long carbon

and continue to grow fatter by the month since the early 90's when I purchased a Trek 5200