Originally Posted by Fredo76

I am left with trying to model how a simple statement relying on the physics involved can get so much pushback on a cycling forum. My guess that it involves a lack of experience (either with disparate wheel weights, or mass-start competition cycling), or a mis-understanding of the measuring or modeling involved (especially involving simplifying assumptions), or simply internet feral-pack behavior (not meaning yours!).

Heavy wheels feel sluggish because they are! Trust your senses, everybody.

Originally Posted by Intake

PeteHski Stiffness doesnt play a bigger role to this? my stock wheels vs RZ has 200 grams diff. which is nothing

I read that a light wheel accelerate faster but you have to push to keep the power cause its deaccelerate faster / compared to a heavier wheel .

SO if i upgrade to RZ i will have stiffer / more durable wheel and maybe better riding quality, but not faster lol

Originally Posted by PeteHski

Not this old bs again!

The physics of accelerating a wheel is pretty simple and it has been modelled without any need for simplification. Swiss Side did this modelling when working with Ineos and concluded that wheel mass is only significant for climbing, not acceleration.

From past experience I’m not expecting you to accept reality, but it might be useful for others who might be curious.

Originally Posted by Fredo76

Yes, this old bs again. Eat your fill. You'll be better informed, if not smarter.

Or, you could try some heavy wheels sometime - that might be more, um, palatable. And it would make you more credible, too.

Originally Posted by bblair

Great Chris Horner Youtube video called, "Don't Spend Money to Go Faster," or something like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCjg...hyaXMgaG9ybmVy

Originally Posted by PeteHski

….and this too is a good perspective. There are no performance miracles on offer with a wheel upgrade. 200g weight saving is not going to transform your acceleration, 😂

Originally Posted by bblair

No sure about you folks, but there is not a lot of acceleration on a 50 mile ride with my friends.

Originally Posted by PeteHski

You can believe what you like about wheel weight, but the laws of physics are pretty well understood in 2024. Look at the wheels modern pros are using and you will observe how they nearly always trade wheel weight for aero, even when there is a lot of climbing. The only valid use case for ultra-lightweight wheels is pure hill climb racing. For crits you are far better off on heavier aero wheels. The weight penalty is simply not big enough to matter in comparison to the aero gains.

Originally Posted by terrymorse

I can think of a few routes where lightweight wins over aero. Essentially, weight matters more on a route with a substantial amount of climbing, because:

1. the rider spends a majority of their time climbing, so they stand to gain the most when climbing faster
2. the rider usually is working the hardest during the climbs, so they can reduce some fatigue with less weight
3. most of us normals don't climb as fast as a pro, so we don't benefit from aero when going uphill

Originally Posted by terrymorse

... most of us normals don't climb as fast as a pro, so we don't benefit from aero when going uphill

Originally Posted by PeteHski

How about you inform yourself better? Start with podcast Episide 4 below, which explains the reality for you. Wheel weight plays a small part when climbing, but wheel rotational inertia is a third order insignificant factor, even for crit racing with repeated hard accelerations.

https://www.swissside.com/pages/podcast

Heavy wheels are a relative term when discussing half decent road bikes. My current wheels (DT Swiss ERC 1400) weigh 1477g, so not heavy or super light.

I could switch to their lightest climbing wheels (PRC 1100 Mon Chasseral) at 1266g, saving 211g. That’s just half of the 450g difference Swiss Side used in their study linked above. I would gain just a few seconds on a long steady mountain climb and would be slower everywhere else from the increased aero drag. So no thanks.

You can believe what you like about wheel weight, but the laws of physics are pretty well understood in 2024. Look at the wheels modern pros are using and you will observe how they nearly always trade wheel weight for aero, even when there is a lot of climbing. The only valid use case for ultra-lightweight wheels is pure hill climb racing. For crits you are far better off on heavier aero wheels. The weight penalty is simply not big enough to matter in comparison to the aero gains.

The OP is talking about saving 200g on a wheel set. This is going to make no significant difference to the performance. That doesn’t mean it isn’t worth upgrading because there are otter factors that might lead to an overall improvement eg stiffness, durability, aero, wider internal rim. But weight certainly isn’t a big factor here.

My advice to the OP would be to get a decent quality set of carbon 40-50 mm deep aero wheels, matched to whatever tyre width they are using, preferably 28-30 mm if they have clearance. They will be reasonably light anyway and measurably faster in most situations.

Originally Posted by Jrasero

I mean yes and no. It really depends on how much time you spend accelerating at lower speeds where aerodynamics matter less and to your point at higher speeds 25mph+ aerodynamics will start to outweigh rolling resistance thus this is why the pros can use heavier deeper wheels, granted we are not the pros.

Originally Posted by Jrasero

I mean yes and no. It really depends on how much time you spend accelerating at lower speeds where aerodynamics matter less and to your point at higher speeds 25mph+ aerodynamics will start to outweigh rolling resistance thus this is why the pros can use heavier deeper wheels, granted we are not the pros. Lighter wheels simply equal less gravitational potential energy and aerodynamics play less of a role descending because you aren't exerting energy and the laws of gravity are more at play. Heavier wheels can be faster on the flats not only due to aerodynamics but momentum and kinetic energy, thus the mass of the wheel counts twice because they are translating and rotating, thus a lightweight bike and or wheelset on a climb does matter because speed is heavily determined via acceleration. Again, if you are a PRO and can put out massive watts acceleration get somewhat mute, but again no one on this sub is a Pro

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

Your ultimate speed when descending (without power) occurs when the force from gravity is balanced by aerodynamic drag, so it doesn't make sense to says aerodynamics play less of a role.

Originally Posted by Jrasero

I am a big Chinese Direct to consumer wheel guy. Winspace Hypers, Elite Wheels Drive Series, and 9Velo LV 2.0 and CD 2.0 Series are some of my favorite. Hypers are $1500 but have a 10% coupon but are some of the most aero wheels while being pretty stiff with carbon spokes and have ceramic bearings. The 2023 Hyper D45 is 1420g with a 46mm front and 54mm rear depth wheel with 21mm internal but also are offered in a 33mm and 67mm. The Elite Wheels Drive series starts at $1189 but I believe they have a 15% coupon floating around. 50mm wheel are 1300g and 40mm are 1290g and all have 21mm internal, but they do offer mixed depth wheels now. Hybrid ceramic bearings and carbon spokes, the Drive series isn't as stiff nor aero as the Hypers but they are pretty darn close. 9VELO are some of the most affordable. They aren't as flashy like the Hypers with their butterfly weave or the Drives with their glossy crushed carbon swirl look, but they are simply solid wheels. LV series offered as small as a 35mm and all wheel have 21mm internal. New 2.0 gens have non drilled rim beds so no rim tape is needed. The LV and CD use a 36T ratchet hub that is frankly a DT Swiss 240 dupe. The LV series is Sapim CX-Ray spokes and steel bearings and the CD has carbon spokes and ceramic bearings. The LV 35 start at a crazy 1209g and is offered in a 45mm and 55mm and are $939 but have a 15% code but no mixed depth options. The CD series are only offered in a 45mm which starts at an insane 1199g but a 58mm is offered at 1342g but not mixed depth options and the CD series starts at $1289 with 15% code.

All of these wheel offer tremendous value and I had zero issues with shipping or customs. I did however have my rear Hyper Wheel have a semi common problem with the carbon layup popping when lightly compressed, but Winspace replaced the wheel and the new wheel has been flawless. The Drive wheels have been with zero problems. My 1st gen 9Velo LV35 might have developed a crack due to some gravel use and 9Velo sent me a free replacement wheel. I don't have a ton of miles on them but I have had zero issues with the 2nd gen LV and CD wheels. This is all to say the big issue with Chinese wheels isn't quality it's just ease of customer service, but if you are willing to bypass big name brands and are okay dealing with a foreign brand than I would say these are amazing wheels no matter which ones you pick

Originally Posted by Jrasero

I am a big Chinese Direct to consumer wheel guy. Winspace Hypers, Elite Wheels Drive Series, and 9Velo LV 2.0 and CD 2.0 Series are some of my favorite. Hypers are $1500 but have a 10% coupon but are some of the most aero wheels while being pretty stiff with carbon spokes and have ceramic bearings. The 2023 Hyper D45 is 1420g with a 46mm front and 54mm rear depth wheel with 21mm internal but also are offered in a 33mm and 67mm. The Elite Wheels Drive series starts at $1189 but I believe they have a 15% coupon floating around. 50mm wheel are 1300g and 40mm are 1290g and all have 21mm internal, but they do offer mixed depth wheels now. Hybrid ceramic bearings and carbon spokes, the Drive series isn't as stiff nor aero as the Hypers but they are pretty darn close. 9VELO are some of the most affordable. They aren't as flashy like the Hypers with their butterfly weave or the Drives with their glossy crushed carbon swirl look, but they are simply solid wheels. LV series offered as small as a 35mm and all wheel have 21mm internal. New 2.0 gens have non drilled rim beds so no rim tape is needed. The LV and CD use a 36T ratchet hub that is frankly a DT Swiss 240 dupe. The LV series is Sapim CX-Ray spokes and steel bearings and the CD has carbon spokes and ceramic bearings. The LV 35 start at a crazy 1209g and is offered in a 45mm and 55mm and are $939 but have a 15% code but no mixed depth options. The CD series are only offered in a 45mm which starts at an insane 1199g but a 58mm is offered at 1342g but not mixed depth options and the CD series starts at $1289 with 15% code.

All of these wheel offer tremendous value and I had zero issues with shipping or customs. I did however have my rear Hyper Wheel have a semi common problem with the carbon layup popping when lightly compressed, but Winspace replaced the wheel and the new wheel has been flawless. The Drive wheels have been with zero problems. My 1st gen 9Velo LV35 might have developed a crack due to some gravel use and 9Velo sent me a free replacement wheel. I don't have a ton of miles on them but I have had zero issues with the 2nd gen LV and CD wheels. This is all to say the big issue with Chinese wheels isn't quality it's just ease of customer service, but if you are willing to bypass big name brands and are okay dealing with a foreign brand than I would say these are amazing wheels no matter which ones you pick