Carbonfiberboy 

Toe clips work best with some sort of cleat-like thing fitting into the rat-traps. I used toe clips for years and wore tennies which develop a wear slot in that soft sole and thus one cannot pull one's foot out, no matter what, which once in a while, has its downside. I once went headfirst into a telephone pole, bike still attached.

Yes, clipping in takes practice. In a group ride, one can always tell who rides a lot by how they leave a stop - do they hit the clip first try, no coasting? On our tandem, I use double sided SPDs to make that more reliable. The captain can't ever miss because the pedals keep going around. Stoker has single sided because she never unclips.

I've tried riding the tandem not clipped in and kept getting hit by the pedals because my foot would come off unless I really concentrated on keeping weight in them. That hurt. So much for "there's no difference."

spelger

you're saying you don't? (general you, that is) i can certainly feel it in my calves when i pour on some gas that way. i can't keep it up for long and i doubt the power is significant but i do believe it gives my other muscles a bit of a breather.

spelger

you are lucky that is all you got.

Trakhak

"Toe clips work best with some sort of cleat-like thing fitting into the rat-traps," etc. You just reminded me of my first experience with toe clips and cleats on my brand-new Helyett track bike:

This was when I was 13 years old, in 1964. The local bike shop owner sold me leather-soled, perforated-uppers Detto Pietro shoes and a pair of T.A. Jacques Anquetil cleats and sent me to the cobbler around the corner.

I said to him, "Please nail the cleats on so my feet point straight forward."

He looked at the soles, saw that the shoes hadn't been used yet, and said, "You'd better ride a few days without cleats so I can see where your cleats should go."

I politely persisted, and he said, "OK," nailed on the cleats, and handed the shoes back, saying, mysteriously, "I'll see you again soon."

Two days later, I was back. He smiled, pulled the cleats off, and sent me out the door. I rode without cleats for a few days and then brought the shoes back. He looked at the marks in the soles and nailed the cleats on again. Perfect.

Carbonfiberboy 

I was 17, my first road bike, a full Campy Legnano, bought used from a wealthy NY kid. No bike shop involved. First thing I did was disassemble the bike down to the last nut, bolt, and ball bearing, and put it back together. I always did my own bike work. "10 speed", half step front, 5 speed cassette, don't remember the tooth count. I loved that bike. I got on that thing and I was turbine powered.

79pmooney

I just scanned the posts so maybe what I am about to say is already said: SPDs and SPD-SLs are fundamentally different pedals from completely different roots. SPDs were designed for mountain biking. Place the foot down on the pedal and you are in. SPD-SLs were patterned after the LOOK Deltas (at least in how they are used. As racing pedals. A clipless replacement for the toeclips racers had been using most of 100 years. Easier to get into and also provided float, though the float could be locked out so they functioned like a toeclip and the traditional slotted cleats.

The SPD and LOOK were the first two clipless pedals to make thew market and take off. Complete different concepts, technology and intended audience.

So, for a newcomer to clipless, the SPDs are considerably easier to get into, work for aggressive road riding though that was not Shimano's focus (and to my knowledge, it is still not possible to lock out float). Two key parts of the concept are the easy in ans out for mountain bikers who are dabbing ther foot regularly and walkability, both on trail and inside. SPD-SLs were designed explicitly to be a professional road racing pedal. (In road racing, most competitors only clip in once; at the start which is usually a leisurely rollout, so the more involve clip-in simply isn't an issue.) Walkability wasn't considered. The shoes they were replacing weren't much better on floors or pavement.

And a little history on the SPD-SL (at least as I've observed it). Pro racing in the '90s, the LOOK Deltas ruled along with several other different types (Time for one). SPDs were almost completely absent, especially among the top racers. Shimano's top sponsored rider was Lance Armstrong. But Armstrong refused to race the Shimano pedals. He wanted/needed no-float and I believe used Deltas with the black no-float cleats. Armstrong being a good company man, didn't call attention to his non-Shimano pedals but he also refused to change. Finally Shimano made a Delta look-a-like so their best rider would actually ride their pedals. Hence the SPD-SL.

I came from toeclips, learning in 1978 that I needed to set my cleats to force my feet to toe in so my knees tracked correctly. This ruled out all pedals with float. Never knew the black LOOK cleats existed. (Every time I went to a bike shop to look into clipless pedals, I pointed out my knee issues and that float didn't work, only to be told the float was God's gift to those with knee issues. I'd turn around and wall out empty handed. 2000, a salesman finally told me "there are these black cleats that lock it out".) So, finally being told, I've been on board with the LOOK Deltas and black cleats for my road bikes. Still toeclips for my fix gears because with both cleats and the straps pulled tight, feet never come off the pedals and I would much rather fall over 20 times forgetting to unclip the straps than have my foot come out once at 40+ mph/200+ RPM. I have my city/trail bike set up SPD for the easy walking. Set with the toe-in maxed out to force my feet. Not ideal. Pretty much works and that bike doesn't get my hard riding, miles or serious hills.

79pmooney

Great story! And, yup, that's what so many of us did. (For me, until my knee issues. Then once I found the toe-in, I simply copied that to the next pair.)

79pmooney

In my upbringing and coming to proper road speed so I could consider racing, there were three huge upgrades. Each one took me to a new level. The first came in two steps. Toestraps. And pulling them tight. And once I started pulling them tight, there was never going back. The difference was radical. The riding shoes and cleats. Another, smaller wow. (I would go back to uncleated shoes for my commuter but still pulled those straps tight. But the cycling shoes and cleats were simply better. That was obvious even though those shoes were not a whole lot stiffer.) And the last wow - sewups. Over the clinchers of the early '70s, the equal to all the toeclip and cleat upgrades but not bigger.

The club vets who taught me to race stressed pedaling circles. I still do and when I am in form, frequently lift my feet off the pedals on my fix gears if I don't pull the straps tight. Obvious on hills but also the flat. Not late in long rides when I'm tired but often enough that it is obvious I still tend to pull up on the back stroke. And - again I need to be in form to do this - I can de-emphasis the downstroke and emphasis the rest of the cycle when my CP knees want a break. I've done this for miles late in the day on very long rides. My knees love it. (And I have to laugh when I am doing it because we all know from some of the frequent posters here, what I am doing is totally impossible.)

PeteHski

This sums it up in one short paragraph:-

https://www.crimsonperformance.com/b...power%20output.

More detail in this article written by a leading pro fitter.

https://www.cyclefit.co.uk/journal/five-modern-bike-fitting-problems

BTinNYC 

Firstly, I really like how the phyisical connection of being "clipped in" makes me feel like the bike and I are one machine.

Regarding pedaling, I don't pull up on the pedals when riding but I definitely do the foot scrape along the bottom of the pedaling arc.

Also, when I get that old twinge in my right knee, focusing on perfectly smooth pedaling with plenty of bottom scrape usually sets things right. Cant really do that with flat pedals.

Iride01 

I agree that it's likely a bad idea. But I do find there are sometimes I find myself pulling on the upstroke, as my muscles used for the down stroke are getting tired. I've wondered if it's any significant amount of power for that moment in time. But I only have a single sided PM. And for certain my muscles used for pulling up don't seem like they'll ever get use to doing that for very long.

These are usually times when I'm trying to sprint up a hill.

PeteHski

That’s very interesting. Can you provide any evidence for this claim?

Jack Tone 

"Can using the upstroke increase power output?

From experience riders who actively pull up are often more unstable on the bike and have poor pedalling technique."


Well, that explains the crashes I see in some final sprints. Damn sprinters can't pedal correctly when clipped in.

MilhouseJ

Totally. Fast-forward a few years though, and I have a neat set of scars on my face from a nasty little tumble over the bars. As it happens, your face IS NOT the best way to break a fall.😁

PeteHski

I don't think edge cases where you might briefly pull up on the pedals (standing start sprint, climbing at very low cadence etc) are really applicable to this general comment. I'm pretty sure this was discussing a regular seated pedal stroke e.g at tempo or FTP at a normal or high cadence. There are plenty of reasons why clipless pedals are a good idea, but producing more power on the regular upstroke is not one of them. But this has been flogged to death many times previously and all the credible sources I've read in the last decade suggest that actively pulling up on the pedals is not a good idea and actually very hard to produce any meaningful torque. It is well documented that pros don't produce power by pulling up on their pedals either. So it's not just us plebs.

I always ride clipless pedals (SPD-SL) on my road bike as I like the locked-in feeling and foot stability. I've gone back and forth on my mountain bike and have a slight preference for pinned flats. But that's mainly for convenience off the bike.