Can you give me your opinion on night time cramps?
#26
OM boy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Posts: 4,408
Bikes: a bunch
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked 671 Times
in
454 Posts
But you'll likely have to become a fan... if you want to end the night cramps.
I have heard that pickle juice works for some... I wouldn't mind, except it isn't all that tasty just before bedtime...
so I do the key 3 (and this has works for me for decades...)
I'll do the supplement on days when the ride has been hard, lengthy or producing significant perspiration - usually rides over 2.5 hrs+, long hammerfests, big climbing days
and any activity (hiking, backpacking, XC skiing) when the effort is long or high.
My evening supplement, hour or 2 before bed - works for me 150 lbs, 5'9", relatively low butter-fat ... LOL!
Magnesium is the key - I use 250mg
Potassium Gluconate (not the most active, but also least likely to cause side issues) - 100mg
Calcium in Calcium Lactate - 84mg elemental calcium
Calcium Lactate is also a primary ingredient in the very good supplement called 'Sports Legs'. Used to 'prime' the muscles for hard efforts from the outset of activity - when 'warmup' is limited.
Great as a supplement for Crit racing! Lactate is a primary energy source for muscles, and this supplement helps preload the system which muscles can use before the body's level of lactate can build to needed levels... Great even if you're a 'slow twitch' guy/girl.
As for when to supplement...
If you're paying attention, the night cramps come as a result of a day's effort. When you get close to the effort/environment that you know will give night cramps - do the supplements before bed... Otherwise, a good balanced diet will take care of in-between....
Zinc is also noted for cramps, especially regular period cramps. I don;t do it separate. I get enough zinc in my daily supplement (which also includes the needed B6 for the body's acquisition of the zinc - otherwise won;t be used...)
I will be supplementing Mg, Ca, K tonight...
Every day is a learning experience about myself...
Ride On
Yuri
EDIT: also, if you guess wrong and get cramps (not having taken the supplements) - have them handy and take them (with a sloid glass of water) when the cramps happened.
hopefully the cramps will end, but figure about 15 mins after taking the supplements, they will start taking effect and you'll have a peaceful rest of night...
Last edited by cyclezen; 02-10-22 at 08:25 PM.
Likes For Aroyobob:
#28
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,691
Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4427 Post(s)
Liked 4,072 Times
in
2,715 Posts
I was in a Vietnamese restaurant and they had a shot with a homemade pickleback and that stuff was really really really good, told the bartender forget the shots can I just get more of the pickle juice. It was that good I would have drank a liter of that stuff. The whiskey was probably Jack or something not exciting and not worth the time but that pickle juice was seriously good I wish I had it on all my rides it would be such a pick me up (or should I say pickle me up...yuck yuck yuck)
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,781
Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked 3,048 Times
in
1,888 Posts
Go with your instincts on this. Daily supplementation is pointless, it isn't electrolytes or you'd have a whole buttload of much worse symptoms.
I get those kind of cramps when I'm ramping up m activity level, and then they magically go away when I've been operating at that level for a few weeks. I get them most in the spring, when I'm shifting from indoor cardio to cycling, then I almost never get them any other time of the year.
Only thing that works for me is standing up and walking around. It's weird because it feels like the last thing I'd want to do while cramping, but it works like a charm in a matter of seconds. If I don't get up, they don't want to quit..
I get those kind of cramps when I'm ramping up m activity level, and then they magically go away when I've been operating at that level for a few weeks. I get them most in the spring, when I'm shifting from indoor cardio to cycling, then I almost never get them any other time of the year.
Only thing that works for me is standing up and walking around. It's weird because it feels like the last thing I'd want to do while cramping, but it works like a charm in a matter of seconds. If I don't get up, they don't want to quit..
I don't think that the "electrolyte" "supplement" stuff is a sufficient explanation. If it were a systemic electrolyte depletion, you'd be getting cramps in muscles all around your body. We get them in the muscles that have experienced all that exertion.
It's having the legs motionless that brings these cramps on. Go for a long easy walk after your ride. Don't sit on the couch too long.
#30
Grupetto Bob
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,277
Bikes: Bikey McBike Face
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2616 Post(s)
Liked 5,741 Times
in
2,956 Posts
I frequently got cramping at night after long rides, especially on hot days. It also happens if I am working hard on the trainer for an hour or two. For me it comes down to keeping properly hydrated. When I force myself to drink - I have a count down drink reminder on my computer it generally works pretty well. Drink before you become thirsty is the general rule. If I slack and don’t drink enough or if I push myself too hard, I may cramp before bed. In that case, I will take a couple of big slugs of dill pickle juice and pop a magnesium tablet and never have an issue.
Pickle juice is so widely used for cramps that Amazon carries tons of the stuff https://www.amazon.com/s?k=pickle+ju..._ts-doa-p_3_11
Pickle juice is so widely used for cramps that Amazon carries tons of the stuff https://www.amazon.com/s?k=pickle+ju..._ts-doa-p_3_11
__________________
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
Last edited by rsbob; 02-10-22 at 10:44 PM.
#31
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Same. They go away when you reach a better level of fitness. In the spring I can get them after 60 miles. In August, I won't get them even after a hard century.
I don't think that the "electrolyte" "supplement" stuff is a sufficient explanation. If it were a systemic electrolyte depletion, you'd be getting cramps in muscles all around your body. We get them in the muscles that have experienced all that exertion.
It's having the legs motionless that brings these cramps on. Go for a long easy walk after your ride. Don't sit on the couch too long.
I don't think that the "electrolyte" "supplement" stuff is a sufficient explanation. If it were a systemic electrolyte depletion, you'd be getting cramps in muscles all around your body. We get them in the muscles that have experienced all that exertion.
It's having the legs motionless that brings these cramps on. Go for a long easy walk after your ride. Don't sit on the couch too long.
Likes For livedarklions:
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2333 Post(s)
Liked 2,097 Times
in
1,314 Posts
Opinion?
Insufficient training for the ride.
I had cramps once. Third day of consecutive double centuries and day 2 had killer hills. I cramped on day 3. Had to be inadequate training. I take lots and lots of supplements, so, that could also be a factor for me never cramping except that one time. YMMV
Insufficient training for the ride.
I had cramps once. Third day of consecutive double centuries and day 2 had killer hills. I cramped on day 3. Had to be inadequate training. I take lots and lots of supplements, so, that could also be a factor for me never cramping except that one time. YMMV
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 733
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 369 Post(s)
Liked 424 Times
in
250 Posts
IME, I get cramps when my muscles are tired, for example in the Spring if I've not cycled much during the winter. What I've used successfully is stretching and self massage, like with a massage stick. I do this after I get off the bike, and sometimes again shortly before going to bed. Sometimes I also massage my thighs with that Theraworks product. I'm not sure if it's the stuff in Theraworks, or if it's just the extra massage (and I'd do just as well with oil or anything else), but that also seems to help. (I bought the bottle, I might as well use it up, when it's gone I'll probably switch to oil and only go back to Therawroks if I find that massage with oil isn't as effective.)
Once I get used to cycling more, I need massage less and less to prevent cramps, but I go back to it if I have an unusually long or hard ride.
Once I get used to cycling more, I need massage less and less to prevent cramps, but I go back to it if I have an unusually long or hard ride.
#34
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721
Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,489 Times
in
1,286 Posts
It's because those people have been brainwashed into believing that it's impossible to live without taking supplements and they are confused as to what the human body really needs. Our whole nutrition and fitness industry is one big mess of confusion and misinformation.
Likes For wolfchild:
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2333 Post(s)
Liked 2,097 Times
in
1,314 Posts
It's because those people have been brainwashed into believing that it's impossible to live without taking supplements and they are confused as to what the human body really needs. Our whole nutrition and fitness industry is one big mess of confusion and misinformation.
Carbs kill.
Eat fat.
See the PURE study.
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Hacienda Hgts
Posts: 2,117
Bikes: 1999 Schwinn Peloton Ultegra 10, Kestrel RT-1000 Ultegra, Trek Marlin 6 Deore 29'er
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 827 Post(s)
Liked 1,968 Times
in
948 Posts
Just for the record, has anyone here completed courses in anatomy and physiology?
The info is readily available to find the link between action potentials, magnesium, contraction and muscle spasms.
It is not difficult.
Yes, you can get it through diet alone.
I take Magnesium citrate for middle insomnia as well.
A great benefit is I no longer have to deal with muscle spasms at night after heavy exertion.
I am not saying there is no benefit from stretching and massage. It helps me too.
The info is readily available to find the link between action potentials, magnesium, contraction and muscle spasms.
It is not difficult.
Yes, you can get it through diet alone.
I take Magnesium citrate for middle insomnia as well.
A great benefit is I no longer have to deal with muscle spasms at night after heavy exertion.
I am not saying there is no benefit from stretching and massage. It helps me too.
Likes For CAT7RDR:
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 29,589
Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Marin Muirwoods 29er, Trek FX Alpha 7.0
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5234 Post(s)
Liked 3,602 Times
in
2,356 Posts
wanna feel good after a strong ride? after reading about it I started doing this - warm/hot soak in an epsom bath. 20 minute minimum. longer if you have the time. don't know if I've ever gone an hour, but certainly 30 min maybe even 45. I know I've had to add more hot water. be generous w/ the epsom salt (buy it separately) & add a good foaming bath soap like Dr Teal's Eucalyptus and Spearmint Foaming Bath. 1/2 glass of red wine doesn't hurt either. magnesium is a natural muscle relaxer. hot soaks aren't just for children or old men. athletes do it too. while you are soaking, massage the large muscles of your legs, calves too
#38
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Just for the record, has anyone here completed courses in anatomy and physiology?
The info is readily available to find the link between action potentials, magnesium, contraction and muscle spasms.
It is not difficult.
Yes, you can get it through diet alone.
I take Magnesium citrate for middle insomnia as well.
A great benefit is I no longer have to deal with muscle spasms at night after heavy exertion.
I am not saying there is no benefit from stretching and massage. It helps me too.
The info is readily available to find the link between action potentials, magnesium, contraction and muscle spasms.
It is not difficult.
Yes, you can get it through diet alone.
I take Magnesium citrate for middle insomnia as well.
A great benefit is I no longer have to deal with muscle spasms at night after heavy exertion.
I am not saying there is no benefit from stretching and massage. It helps me too.
And yes, I have completed courses in biology and anatomy and physiology. Is that supposed to be some sort of scary credential?
Your intuitive hypothesis has been tested considerably, it doesn't seem to hold any water. There's little or no difference between supplementation and placebo. And magnesium gives some people diarrhea..
Here--knock yourself out: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32956536/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2603490
Electrolyte-rich foods tend to be otherwise healthy, so no harm in that.
Likes For livedarklions:
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,781
Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked 3,048 Times
in
1,888 Posts
Again, even if dehydration or electrolyte imbalance is a partial cause, that is something that should affect all muscles in the body. You don't have dehydration or electrolyte imbalances localized to particular muscles. The fact that the cramps occur in muscles that have been over-exerted is important. Stretching *those* muscles and keeping them from tightening up during immobilization is going to be key.
Likes For MinnMan:
#40
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Again, even if dehydration or electrolyte imbalance is a partial cause, that is something that should affect all muscles in the body. You don't have dehydration or electrolyte imbalances localized to particular muscles. The fact that the cramps occur in muscles that have been over-exerted is important. Stretching *those* muscles and keeping them from tightening up during immobilization is going to be key.
Whole other thread, but my position on stretching is if it makes you feel better, do it. If it doesn't, don't.
My post-workout routine is a hot shower, seems to loosen up the muscles nicely.
As far as your first point--that a generalized electrolyte deficiency shouldn't cause localized cramping in just one overworked muscle seems so obvious to me, but people who insist it's one electrolyte or the other never seem to try to take that on.
#41
Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Greenwood Indiana
Posts: 2,805
Bikes: Surly Crosscheck
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1542 Post(s)
Liked 868 Times
in
521 Posts
I think hydration and stretching. My cramps are a bit different if it is just hot weather or increased mileage and effort, but hydration and stretching seems to help either way.
__________________
Good Night Chesty, Wherever You Are
Good Night Chesty, Wherever You Are
#42
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Nobody really knows what triggers cramps or causes post-workout muscle pain, so seems to help is probably as good as it gets.
Likes For livedarklions:
#43
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 15,111
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6263 Post(s)
Liked 4,862 Times
in
3,351 Posts
Are you at the age where the doctors put you on meds for various old age things? If so, check the side effects of each. Even some meds for depression and some of the oddball drugs for ADHD have cramps as a side effect.
Likes For Iride01:
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2333 Post(s)
Liked 2,097 Times
in
1,314 Posts
The cause is generally insufficient fitness. You're writing checks your legs can't cash. (Unless someone is a profuse and salty sweater and doing a very long ride)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4532703/
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/h...ring-exercise/
......evidence suggests that they are placing greater demands on their muscles during the race relative to their current state of training.
These days it’s become quite fashionable for commentators seeking to ‘disprove’ the dehydration/electrolyte theory of EAMC to play down this early work in industrial medicine around salt and cramping as dated, flimsy and insignificant. This is especially true for staunch supporters of the neuromuscular theory (detailed below). However, having read (and re-read) most of the work available from the era, I’m far from convinced that it deserves to be so easily dismissed
#45
Full Member
Thread Starter
Did stretching last night while watching TV. Dad had eaten all the pickles, so no juice for me. No cramps last night. I haven't been doing extra long bike rides, just bike commuting which can be either 10-20 mi per day. Maybe 20+ mile mountain bike rides once a week. Again, this never happens when biking. Only in the middle of the night, The only time I've been able to trigger it is when I do my nordic curls.
#46
Full Member
Thread Starter
The cause is generally insufficient fitness. You're writing checks your legs can't cash. (Unless someone is a profuse and salty sweater and doing a very long ride)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4532703/
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/h...ring-exercise/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4532703/
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/h...ring-exercise/
#47
Full Member
Thread Starter
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2333 Post(s)
Liked 2,097 Times
in
1,314 Posts
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2333 Post(s)
Liked 2,097 Times
in
1,314 Posts
Try riding only in zone 1 and 2 for 6 weeks.
I bet your leg cramps will get better.
I bet your leg cramps will get better.