timtak

I have heard others, such as Carbonfibreboy opine in a similar way but perhaps we, or at least I am wrong.

At least we can agree, I think, that as per the Hogg article you quote, thank you, that there is more than one style
https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...-what-is-best/

I am enjoying "dropping my heels" less because it is fast, but rather because it gives more of my muscles (particularly those in my "core" or bottom) a good workout.

Hogg compares Anquetil, Merckx and Hinault and finds that while their foot angle is toe down, heel down and "joe average" they all won five (? or several) tours so it is all good and he may well, very likely be right.

Returning to the first point however, has there been a trend towards a toe down style?

It seems to me that there has been a change in pedalling style but it is not captured by foot angle.

It seems to me that "bunched up at the back" or hip angle is more descriptive of the change that seems to have occurred. Merckx and Anquetil had very different foot angles but I think that they both had an un-open (acute, "bunched up at the back") hip angle. In that sense, both of them (I am not sure about Hinault) had a similar, now non prevalent style.

I associate their styles with heel dropping (the topic of this thread) even though Anquetil did not drop his heels, because, I think that both Merckz and Anquentil used their core/butt muscles more in a push forwards push (pull?) back style whereas today, irrespective of foot angle, there may be a tendency to use an open hip angle, far less use of ones butt muscles, and a sort of superman, time trial, sprinting on the bike style of pedalling.

Even though Anquetil's toes were pointing down, I think he was "bunched up at the back," pushing forwards and pushing? pulling? or trebucheting backwards using his glutes a lot.

So rather than' heel drop' to 'toe drop', I think that there may have been a 21st century tendency to sprint on the bike, using an open hip angle, and predominantly quads, rather than a closed hip angle and quads glutes, quads glutes.

PeteHski

Probably the best way to confirm any positional trends is to look at the evolution of road bike frame geometry. Not something I've really looked at in detail. Here in the UK, several experienced fitters have commented that many performance riders have a tendency to set their saddle too high (which may well force them into a more toe-down pedalling style). However, it is not clear how long this has been a trend since professional bike fits are a relatively new thing. Less saddle setback also appears to be a recent trend over the last few years, with more race bikes having zero-offset posts and relatively short-nosed saddles. But not all the pros are following that particular trend.

timtak

I am not all that sure about the trend either, and I am sure that "all pros" are NOT using the more forward offset, sprint-like, time-trial-like, quad-centred, "toe down" (with provisos) style. Tom, Pidcock ankles even on downhills.

But please consider the style that Terry is saying is physiological, and I thought so too, for the same reasons as Terry outlines.

The reason being it is difficult to push down with your knees below your chest.

But the point of this thread is to point out there is another way to be physiological, and that is to pedal "from the back seat" by pushing forwards, and give up pushing before you get to the bottom of the stroke, and then use your glutes to bring the pedals back past the nadir;

The trick to the glute portion, is to put the base of your femur on the saddle (!!!) and catapult your feet backwards, (as if your glutes are the weight of an upside down trebuchet).

To push forwards (and only forwards NOT down from your chest) it helps but it is not essential to drop your heels. Even if you don't drop your heels below level you will feel as though you have dropped them compared to the (my previous and) Terry Morse style above.

To get a rigorous forward push you can:
1) Rotate your hips forwards so that your whole leg and lower body, as if sitting on a recumbent but then you have a rounded back and it is difficult to get low.
2) Use ankling to put an acute angle between your foot and your shin and push your foot forwards at the top of the pedal cycle, and then loading it up to the acute angle again on the glute/bottom part of the stroke.
3) There are some cyclists such as Anquetil who seem to be kicking forwards using dropped toes, even though they are pedalling "from the back seat" ("Bunched up at the back").

Some cyclists are heel dropped all the way, and others are flat all the way around the pedal cycle.

So there are lots of variations but I think that forward with open hips using quads VS "back seat" with tight hips using quads AND glutes is the main dimension of this "trend" (if it is a trend) or difference in style, rather than foot angle.

Doge

David Grills was into that low '80s. As a job I spent a lot of time on pedal stroke, spinning, form.

I think little matters.

timtak

Another thing I am finding about pedalling from the back seat is that I can use cheaper cycling shoes.

I usually use carbon soled shoes made by Shimano or Sidi. They can be had second hand for about 50 USD on the Japanese version of ebay. Most of my Shimano cycling shoes are all very old and falling apart. I also bought some Giro shoes with Dupont plastic and nylon fibre soles. In the past when I was using the sprint-style toe down pedalling, non-carbon-soled shoes, including my Giro shoes with their non-carbon Dupont nylon sole, felt a bit soft. So I did not use them.

Now that I am pedalling "from the back seat", applying force not just in a sprint-like stomp but pushing and pulling, at times in a plane parallel to my shoe soles using the cleat, for far larger part of the pedal cycle, I do not need to use a super stiff sole. The Dupont nylon composite sole of my cheaper Giro shoes seems to be okay.

So switch to old school, Frenchy, bunched-up-at-the-bak, or pedal from your back seat because:
It may be more aero
It hurts the soles of your feet and knees less.
It does not require a timtaked / funny bike super long stem to get aero, or at least more aero than contemporary aero-battleship-bikes.
It exercises your butt muscles which if of considerable importance to old men.
It applies pressure for a longer part of the pedal cycle (better on mud, but there may be other advantages)
It uses more muscles (quads and glutes) for possibly greater endurance
Carbon soled shoe shoes are less useful.

cyclezen

Toes down, 'Digging' may be more of a factor of the move to smaller frame sizes, combined with more and longer periods of high stress/attack mode.
It always been clear that when the effort becomes extreme, a rider tends to move forward on the saddle (when the general setup is what has been used for decades prior) - 'On The Rivet' is something most racers feel and expect, in every race. Those races with high level of this type of riding force a different riding and pedaling style than what the setup might be for.
I personally remember many races where the stress/attack level was so high, I estimate I spent 50 to 60% of my race time 'on the rivet'.
When you move forward, either from 'on the rivet' necessity or by setup design, your pedal stroke must change. More forward and the dorsiflexion angle of the ankle becomes more extreme. Possibly at the extremes of what your ankle flexion will allow (especially true for those with very high arch/instep, like me).
How does one compensate? Toe down pedaling... along with that requires a higher saddle extension... which also means less ability to slide back on the saddle to 'push' the pedal earlier in the stroke. 'Forward' completely changes the form of the pedal stroke and the engagement of the muscles/groups.
Now add in the 'trend' towards smaller frame sizing for racers/pros. That automatically puts you further forward, because the SP is steeper. To not be cramped, the stem is lengthened.
And again, you're well forward from a position more commonly used 10-20 yrs ago.
Then add in the short saddle - for further accenting the forward position.
Quite a few of the pros, especially all-rounders and climbers, might be on smaller frames but also clearly more 'centered' on their bikes. The very forward position seems more common with the younger riders/pros. Although Evenepoel appears more centered. My observations of Poj - not sure - we usually see him, when outside of the peleton and not climbing, he's in an attack mode. And with not being able to see the longer versions of the recent classics, it's hard to determine how he's setup.
Anyway, a bunch more to this...
Ride On
Yuri

PeteHski

Actively pulling up on the cleat is almost universally considered a bad idea by anyone who has actually studied it. Although there is a stubborn myth around the concept that will refuse to die. But basically your hamstrings are not designed to be pulling up on anything and are relatively weak in doing so. I'm sure you can leg press multiple times the weight you can leg curl.

But if what you are doing is making you faster and not causing any problems then it's all good.

timtak

I am sorry I gave the impression that I pull up on the cleat. I meant to say that I am pulling, at times in a plane parallel to my shoe soles using the cleat,

terrymorse 

On the other hand, there appears to a misconception that hamstrings don't contribute much to crank torque. That's not the case. They are doing considerable work:



Source: da Silva JC, Tarassova O, Ekblom MM, Andersson E, Rönquist G, Arndt A. Quadriceps and hamstring muscle activity during cycling as measured with intramuscular electromyography. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2016 Sep

This graph in that article is pertinent to the thread's "Drop your heels!" title. This is the ankle joint angle during the pedaling cycle:




Notice that the subjects were not "dropping their heels", but they were flexing slightly at the top of the pedal stroke, and extending at the bottom. A very mild version of "ankling".

PeteHski

The hamstrings obviously have to function, but what is their actual percentage contribution to crank torque? Single leg drills really show up their relative weakness.

terrymorse 

The study I cited above doesn't show actual force contribution by muscle, only their activation rates.

I suggest that single leg drills don't tell us much about hamstring weakness, as those muscles really aren't that weak. Single leg drills make it obvious how low the pedal torque is in the fourth quadrant of the pedal cycle, when there is very little activation of any muscle.

PeteHski

The Power generation actually looks more like this (see link below) with often a negative torque on the upstroke as your leg struggles to even lift its own weight.

https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blo...dal-smoothness

There was a study of over a hundred pro cyclists and none of them produced any significant torque on the upstroke at normal cadence riding at tempo or higher power. Pros are also better at unweighting their leg on the upstroke to minimise the negative torque in that diagram I linked above.

Here’s a link referencing this study and more recent data.

https://bythlon.com/pages/the-myth-of-the-upstroke

terrymorse 

Yep. And muscle activation graph shows that it's actually the quads that are trying to lift the leg (hip flexion) in the last quadrant of the pedal stroke. The hamstrings aren't working at all at that point.

PeteHski

Maybe I over-simplified muscles used on downstroke and upstroke, but it is clear that we are unable to generate torque on the upstroke with whatever combination of muscles activated. All the torque is generated on the downstroke, with often a negative torque on the upstroke due to the weight of our legs

genejockey 

Far be it from me to agree with Timtak, but he is talking about isn't pulling up, but rather pulling THROUGH the bottom of the stroke, the 'scraping mud off your shoe' motion that some suggest for rounding out the pedal stroke. I practice this sometimes, especially when I'm trying to push high power at high cadence, like on this one quarter mile, 2% gradient on most of my rides, or when just trying to do high cadence drills without bouncing out of the saddle. I can hit 140 (briefly) by concentrating on pulling through the bottom and pushing through the top of the stroke.

Bob Ross

There's a visual exercise I sometimes practice when doing high-cadence drills and I start to bounce: I imagine that instead of pedaling in circles, I'm only kicking my feet forward and backwards, almost like the footboards on an elliptical trainer. I suspect I'm physically achieving exactly what you describe, as it allows me to maintain a high cadence without bouncing in the saddle.

But it would never occur to me to try to ride for any great distance -- or put out any great power -- using this technique.

ussprinceton

these heels got dropped from the Division 1 NCAA tournament. They didn't even make it to the NIT. These HEELS really got dropped

PeteHski

Yes it was my misunderstanding of his earlier post that led to the discussion about pulling. I am familiar with the mud scraping analogy and I find it moderately useful for cadence drills. When the power is higher I just go with my instinct, which appears to be the contemporary advice i.e. your brain works out the most efficient way to pedal if you do lots of it. Whether or not that involves heel drop is very individual. Pedalling should be an unconscious action, especially at higher power levels.

timtak

Why ever not?

Thank you. You understand me. I am not sure why others did not. I did not mention "pulling up" but wrote


Do you use trebucheting/catapulting?

I find trebucheting/catapulting with my femur supported by and see-saw rocking on the saddle, to be the arcane, missing link that allows me to cycle like Frenches of old.

tomato coupe

Sure, when storming a castle.

genejockey 

No. I am quite inflexible, so bending at the waist and reaching out for the bars is not in the cards.. I roll my pelvis forward and keep a straight back.

PeteHski

The studies of pedalling technique I cited earlier were mainly related to pro cyclists, with references to how lesser cyclists compare.

ctak

Bike fitter Neill Stanbury (studied under Hogg) has some excellent YT videos on this topic, and frequently comments on quad overload. Achieving proper balance depends on many factors, but of course glutes and hams are critical to power generation.

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...neill+stanbury

Hermes

Moderation note: Do not troll other members. If you have some value to add on pedaling technique, add it. Otherwise, find a thread that is more to your liking.

timtak

What I find, and have found, strange for quite a long time (20 years) is why there is so much

chest parachute (like a drag racer) when people like Eddie






And myself on a good day, are presenting far less of a (big compared to forearm) surface area to the oncoming wind. I realise that quite a lot of folks can't get into Eddy's position but the lady in this video can. I don't understand why she does not.

It makes me think that this "fitter" is really bad. Why doesn't he show her how to get low like Eddy?

Tim