reggieob

I picked up a 75 Motobecane Grand Jubile this past spring and am just getting around to cleaning it up. All original, except for the Cinelli stem & bars, of which the stem is clearly the incorrect size for the bike. It will drop down an inch or so with grease, but it seems the stem is the incorrect diameter for the head tube. Guessing this is the same French-sizing thing I ran into with my old UO-8. The seller apparently rode this that way - seems a bad idea to me.

So the question is this - do I need to source an old French stem/bar combo (what was original on this?) or is there something modern yet still appropriate that will work. Not super excited about filing down the Cinelli or another modern stem. Kind of bummed - thought the bike good-to-go and I wouldn't get into this again.

Thanks in advance for any ideas...

romperrr 

Either get a french stem or file down a stem. It not very difficult to file the stem. Good luck.

gugie 

Definitive answer from @verktyg in 3...2...1...

eschlwc

it's sanding only a tenth of a mm.

i did this with a seatpost tonight. i replaced the steel seatpost in a '78 fuji with a cheap aluminum one from the bin at the lbs that was not quite the right size, but, 'come on, i ain't using a ridiculous steel post. took about 30 minutes to grind it with a file and sand it with 600 grit.

i did this once before and went a little too far. i had filed the post to size, but then subsequent sanding with paper to remove the initial file marks left the post even smaller. so you really have to know when to quit.

3alarmer

...
...old French stems and bars frighten me.

verktyg 

1975 Motobecane Grand Jubiles came with Pivo Professional bars and Pivo Professional stems. The stems were cheap cast aluminum designed to look like Cinellis, the bars had a reputation for drooping. The following year, 1976, Motobecane switched Japanese made SR bars and stems.



The ACTUAL size of the quills on French stems was 21.9mm... You can't (without ham fisted hammer force) put a 22mm stem in a 22mm bore in the steerer tube.

That said, French and other 22mm steerers were frequently slightly oversize but not quite 22.2mm like the British standard.

I have maybe 15-20 Nitto stems that are all marked 22.2mm but.... all the ones that I've measured are 22.1mm!

So, you could luck out and get a Nitto stem that would fit your bike without any modification.

Most Nitto stems are forged aluminum alloy, same with the bars. You can't go wrong with Nitto stuff plus it has a classic look. they are worth the extra money! (you'd probably pay that much or more for a 22mm Cinelli, 3TTT or Phillipe Professional stem)

Take a file and slightly chamfer the opening of the steerer to remove any burs. Take a brake cylinder hone or roll up some abrasive cloth and clean out any corrosion inside the steerer. Clean up the inside with some solvent afterwards to remove any leftover gunk.

Grease the inside of the steerer and the stem quill before assembly. It makes adjustment and removal easier.

Don't completely tighten tighten the stem bolt until the headset is adjusted.

Make sure that the stem is inserted at least 75mm (3") into the steerer!



Stay away from pretty looking French cast aluminum stems... Belleri for example!


verktyg

Chas.

verktyg 

No, it's 2 tenths of a mm - 0.2mm and it can be a LOT of work. Been-air-dun-at....

About 2+ hours later:



Note the circular hole at the top of the expander split in the first picture above. If you use an olde cast aluminum stem I highly suggest that you round out the top of the split to reduce the tendency for cracks to form in that area.



verktyg

Chas.

eschlwc

no, it's only 0.1mm sanding, all the way around the stem.

when you measure the diameter, it will be 0.2mm smaller.

did it tonight -- 30 min work. my steel file has four different grades that make it easy.

if the op has another use of the cinelli, i'd use japanese stuff on the jubilé, else sand the cinelli.

.

edit: i'd really like to see drive-side pics of the bike in question.

reggieob

You talked me out of sourcing an old French stem/bar combo. So it sounds like my best option may be to pick up a Nitto (I'd like a taller stem anyway) and sand it a bit if it doesn't fit, correct?

Will post photos when I get it all put together - here's one from the seller's ad:

eschlwc

^ looks great. (and tall!)

vintage cellar

I believe I saw a threadless stem adapter available on Ebay that was French stem size. It could be a good solution to getting the handlebars higher and trying out different handlebar positions without having to re-tape the bars.

verktyg 

I'd definitely consider NEW Nitto Bars and stem for a bike that big.

Most of them are forged aluminum alloy and beautifully made. They make a confusing range of stems so look around the web (prices vary too so shop around). Get one that takes 26.0mm bars rather than 25.4mm.

Note, Nitto extension lengths are 5mm longer than the size specs.

Nitto Dynamic stems - standard length quills.

Nitto Pearl stems - standard length quills - most expensive model.

Nitto Technomic stems 225mm tall length and 280mm extra tall length quills. They look geeky and very Fred but hansom is as hansom does...

Nitto 176 bars -26.0mm - they look identical to Cinelli classic bars.

Sites with pictures:

Nitto ? American Cyclery

Ben's Cycle - Stems

Handlebars, Stems & Tape (Revendell's cutesy-wootsy baby talk names are nauseous - Fred bait)

Harris Cyclery Handlebar Stems

HANDLE SEME*NITTO Nitto's Japanese web site - in Japanese of course, but get creative and stumble through!

verktyg

Chas.

reggieob

Thanks for the help - hoping for minimal sanding/filing needed on the Nitto stem!

big chainring 

I would recommend a french bar and stem. The rando-ish Pivo's on Motobecanes are a real nice bend.

Don't believe this crap about french bars drooping, Simplex derailleurs breaking, it's all baloney.

Only bars I remember drooping were cheapo bars from the 60's. Pivo made nice stuff. Phillipe is another good brand.

rootboy 

But try it before you start to sand. I found an old Nitto that slid right into the steerer on my Gitane.
Nice vintage stem , too. Looks like a Cinelli 1A. Can't remember the model name. Cost me five bucks.

And though I would also recommend French bar and stem on a bike like this, in the mid 70s there was at least one model Moto that came with Nitto bars and stem as stock. The Grand Record.

old's'cool

FIFY

My 78 GJ came with a lovely Pivo Randonneur bar, that is holding its shape so far, not that I'm a clyde or anything.

verktyg 

To all of the naysayers...

Unless you've owned the bike since it was new, who knows the history of 30 to 40 year old bars and stem?

Look at the size of @reggieob bike... It's a 25" frame. A person who rides a bike that large can put a lot more torque into the stem and bars....

On smaller sized bikes I've defended the use of olde French bars and stems with lots of caveats.

I've tempted the hand of fate lots of times myself but when I'm making suggestions I like to err to the safe side. It's a long way to the ground!

How many of you have had a stem or bars break while riding???

x 3 for me... It's a clenching experience!

I had 2 Pivo cast aluminum Pivo death stems break off while I was road testing customer's bikes in the early 70's.

The 3rd was ~1975 on one of my bikes. It was a Milremo cast aluminum stem made by Belleri (or Beleri) . It pulled completely out of the steerer! Fortunately I wasn't going very fast and was able to bring the those bikes to a safe stop!



There were millions of European cast aluminum stems produced between the 1940's and the mid 1970's. Most of them have performed trouble free.

A lot of French cast aluminum stems produced during the height of the bike boom, 1972-1973 were pure junk! Sheldon Brown (RIP) claimed that AVA stems were the worst and those were the ones he referred to as "death stems". They were used on Peugeot PX-10s from the 1960s to the early 1970's.



In my experience the Pivo bike boom stems were some of the worst! The produced a lot junk stems that should have been thrown back into the melting pot but were shipped anyway!



By about 1974 Pivo started producing better quality stems with recessed socket head expander bolts. I've never seen a problem with them.



The Pivo alloy bars with the narrow mid section were notorious droopers. They were probably made from alloys that lacked the strength required for a highly stressed application. The tubing wall thickness was not sufficient to resist deformation either.



The later bars with the wider mid sections with the embossed Pivo logo were stronger, I've heard that some even had a steel sleeve inside.



Getting back to the original issue, the picture of the Motobecane does clearly show the bars and stem. Unless the bike is going to be a wall hanger or rarely ridden on smooth roads, I still recommend switching to modern bars...


Oh, and BTW, reggieob, be sure to deburr, clean out and grease the steerer.

verktyg

Chas.

CliffordK

Oh...
I just snagged a Grand Jubile with a tall stem. I haven't measured it yet.

I didn't think of French stems.... perhaps I can get the seller to cough up the original, if only he wasn't 30 miles away At least I won't have to drag a trailer back there

Anyway, if you want the tall one, it will be available shortly

rootboy 

Chas said;
"The Pivo alloy bars with the narrow mid section were notorious droopers. They were probably made from alloys that lacked the strength required for a highly stressed application. The tubing wall thickness was not sufficient to resist deformation either."

That certainly seems right to me, Chas. While I haven't experienced the droop personally, I'll say that the original bars on my Gitane, which are not marked in any way, sure seem cheap to me. Very thin wall aluminum with only a slight raised section for the stem. It seems like they were going for the absolute lightest components they could find. Perhaps in rivalry with Peugeot at the time. They were two of the lightest, affordable "ten speeds" available in the early 70's. Which is why by friend and I chose them for our tour. That and we could afford them.

Those bars look scary to me to this day. But they're still on the bike.

verktyg 

@rootboy,

"It seems like they were going for the absolute lightest components they could find." Read "cheapest"!

The French were notoriously frugal! A centime saved is a croissant earned...



"je ne sais quoi"

A lot of French performance bikes came with "peu coûteux" (inexpensive) alloy bars and stems, even Campy equipped bikes like the Gitane Super Corsa.

At the peak of the US bike boom (there were also smaller bike booms going on in France and the UK), French component manufacturers were working at beyond their capacity. Much of the equipment was outdated, some machinery going back to WWI.

French bike makers were shipping bikes as quickly as they could box them up and push them out the door! That was part of the reason they got a bad rap for cosmetic and quality issues. Items like bars and stems for example.

Inability to supply parts and components is how the Japanese component manufacturers got a foot in the door in the French bicycle industry! The rest is history...

vive la France...



verktyg

Chas.

motogeek 

French bike makers were shipping bikes as quickly as they could box them up and push them out the door! That was part of the reason they got a bad rap for cosmetic and quality issues. Items like bars and stems for example.

As Chas said, most of the French (AND British) bikes of that time period had clear quality control issues ... "just get 'em out the door to the 'Mericans!" Which is precisely why I bought a new '74 Grand Jubile ... the upper end Motos were significantly better than the Gitanes, Juenets, Peugeots and Raleighs of that time period. I really wanted a Raleigh Competition but the finish of the Raleigh frames was atrocious. Plus the Motos applied their markings via some sort of screen printing process rather than decals or foil stickers, then the whole thing was clear coated. Why the market prices for early '70s high end Raleighs is higher than comparable Motobecanes is a total mystery to me. The Motos were (IMHO) clearly better built and finished and better looking, to boot!

As far as the Pivo stems and bars go, I've never had any problems with them. I've had about 5 or 6 Grand Jubiles with both regular and randonneur style bars and have never had one sag/break/or otherwise deteriorate. On my first Grand Jubile I did split the steerer tube where it's filed flat and threaded when I tried to insert a non-French diameter stem into the steerer. It didn't split immediately, but over time it developed a crack and I replaced it with a Grand Record Reynolds 531 fork.