cloozoe

Putting together my parts wish list for building up a 1988 Masi GC frame. Fair bit of experience with relatively contemporary builds, but this will be my first vintage (assuming 1988 qualifies as vintage) effort. Finished bike will be for me; not worried about resale value, not building a show bike or museum piece, not looking for "permission" as to what I may use, not overly concerned with period correctness, but don't want to get too anachronistic, either.

On the one hand, I think indexed shifting was one of the great boons to mankind, on the other, my understanding is that the original syncro were barely functional, and on the 3rd hand, I can't quite bring myself to use Shimano or Suntour on an Italian frame, even though I know it was done on occasion at the time.

Excuse the foregoing long-winded intro to my actual question: did syncro II function well? If not, I'll just go with campy retrofriction/doppler shifters and be done with it.

miamijim

No, not really. They need the appropriate colored ring which can be difficult to find. Oddly enough, the rings match the RD but most freewheels have different spacing.

zukahn1 

They work just alright if everything is correct including the freewheel which had different synchro specific spacing for 6 and 7 and can be bit hard to find. They weren't really bad so much as disapointing considering the price when new or used now and the Campy name. If your going to go Campy for a build like this I would say either go for a few years newer and get some 8 speed record stuff or go with classic retrofriction both of which will work better and actually cost a less.

cloozoe

Thanks, guys. Appreciate the input.

miamijim

Campy literature suggests the colored Synchro rings match RD's not freewheels which makes zero sense. This wonderful chart list the specific rings for specific derailleurs.

RobbieTunes

I've seen exactly two setups with Syncro II that shifted well: a Pinarello built from scratch by a bike shop in 1992, and a used setup I bought knowing that it worked well for the previous owner. One was always pretty good, but not perfect and the other was a real learning experience, as bike mechanics my brother-in-law took it to said it needed this and that and it really didn't need anything. It ended up on a Canopus build and he's been fine with it.

Everything else was a real PITA.

verktyg 

Here's some of the best info on Campy Synchro non-indexing shift levers on the web:

Campagnolo Syncro II shifters ~ tears for gears

Syncro Tips and Tricks ~ tears for gears

The last gasps of Syncro ~ tears for gears


In 2007 I picked up this mint 1987 Bianchi Giro equipped with a Campy Victory II gruppo and 1st generation Synchro shifters. (eBay pictures)



The bike was all original and had all of the correct Campy recommended components. This was my first venture into index shifting on a road bike. I spent several hours futzing around trying to get the thing to index consistently before I gave up and set the adjustment to friction shift.

Not one to give up easily, I picked up several other versions of Synchro levers on eBay plus a number of different colored gear inserts. After another 3+ hours of switching levers, inserts, chains and freewheels - all per Campy's recommended list, I took the last drastic step in the Tears for Gears website - I neutered it by removing the indexing guts.

Yes, you can set the lever to friction shift but with the internals in place the lever movement is rough.


Campy didn't take indexing seriously until about 1991. They viewed indexing as a marketing fad suitable for casual riders on low end bikes!

By 1987, in an effort to reclaim some of their market share of the mid range bike business (lost to Shimano) Campy brought out their "sogno erotico che provoca polluzione notturna" (nocturnal emission) Synchro shift levers.

They made at least 3 different versions of Synchro levers in 4 years time before they threw in the towel and figured out how and why Shimano indexing worked.


To properly adjust a Synchro lever, you need to use a Campagnolo tool #1 ....




Also some self mortification of the flesh.... AKA flagellation




verktyg

Chas.

RobbieTunes

^ pretty much it, in a nutshell.

You'd be better off trying to rebuild the Coliseum.

I want to amend what I said earlier that various mechanics suggested this and that, when really it didn't need anything. What they likely suggested was the result of their own trial and errors over time, because everyone I talked to had a different approach.

Spinz, who used to post here, had a very reliable setup of Syncro II on his Team Raleigh, and I bought it. I got it working on a Cinelli and then my brother-in-law made the mistake of thinking it should work "just like his DA 2x6 indexed." He then submitted it to doom: took it to a mechanic. My setup had the correct insert, freewheel, chain, shifters, RD, "B" setting, you name it. The mechanic promptly took off the Athena RD for a Chorus, kept the Athena RD, and declared "it won't ever work." I eventually took the group off for an 8-sp Chorus Ergo setup, which is still working fine, but the bike, with chrome lugs, etc, looked better with the polished stuff vs. the satin Chorus.

cloozoe

Terrific stuff; many thanks. As much as I'm a sucker for esoteric, pointless pursuits...

beech333

I've got two 8-speed sets of Syncro shifters that I am very happy with. One is original to a 1991 Fuji Titanium and I put the other on a early 80's Gios SR. Both function flawlessly for me. Perhaps the 8-speed stuff works better than the 6/7-speed equipment.

rjhammett

They are a pita. You will spend more time trying to adjust them than riding.

Michael Angelo 

Get Campagnolo 8 speed index down tube shifters, run an 8 speed cassette or Shimano 7 speed freewheel. It will work perfectly.

trentschler

I got it to work OK with a Chorus rear derailleur with the A/B switch (on the B position), the correct insert and a Dura Ace 6-speed freewheel. This on a 1988 Cannondale Criterium that a previous owner had made all Campy. But the shifting wasn't even close to as crisp as the Shimano 7- and 8-speed setups of the same era. Plus, I simply could not get it to work well with 7-speeds and I tried lots of different inserts and derailleur settings. If you watch the derailleur in action, it actually overshifts then springs back, just as a human might have shifted using friction!

Michael Angelo 

8 Speed index "Syncro" shifters, 8 speed Record Rear Cassette hub, shifts perfectly



10 speed Version, also shifts perfectly




No need for fishing equipment in my stable....

Ronsonic 

The fundamental fact of indexed shifting is that it was useless except as an evolutionary step toward the modern integrated shifter/brake lever.

verktyg 

Both derailleurs that you're using are later Campagnolo designs which were similar to Shimano indexing derailleurs. The top pulleys can float side to side by at least 1mm. This allows the chain to self center on the sprocket.

I have an old Simplex SX610 RD that index shifts a 12-28T 8 speed Shimano cassette without any problems. It has a floating top pulley (I had to file a little metal off of the travel stop so that the derailleur could span 8 sprockets).




The problem that I had with the Victory RD was no matter which Campy approved/recommended chain, freewheel, insert, shift cable or Synchro lever version that I tried, it wouldn't stay adjusted.

It would index fine on the smaller sprockets but would start to drag, hang or skip on the larger ones. When I fixed that, the same thing would happen with the smaller cogs.

I'm running Campy and Shimano indexing derailleurs on a number of bikes with Simplex or Campy retrofriction levers. They shift almost as well as true indexing levers plus there's no click stops.

verktyg

Chas.

Michael Angelo 

On Synchro II shifters, I have found that the Green 7 speed insert and a Shimano 7 speed freewheel (not Dura Ace) shifts really good.

dddd

I bought a ~1991 Torrelli with a Athena-copy Xenon gruppo that indexed 7s perfectly.

I later put a larger 13-25t 7s Sunrace freewheel on, replacing the Regina 7s, and the indexing really suffered, couldn't get it adjusted right.
I then put a Shimano 9s chain on, and the shift action was again quick to shift and silent in every gear.
What worked poorly during the Synchro years just might work well with modern, narrower chain fitted.

Having said all that, it is easiest to start with a Synchro-equipped bike that is already shifting properly but with room for improvement that a modern, narrower chain just might enable.
Much like any Suntour U-7 or Accu-7 setup, that would be greatly improved just by using Shimano 9s chain.

paulkal

I guess I was lucky, my bike with c-record derailleur, Regina Syncro chain and freewheel (7 speed) and chain shifts ok with the Syncro I shifters.

cloozoe

With which derailleur(s)?

Bandera

Historical Perspective time.

Having gone shoulder to shoulder in many a finishing sprint in the friction DT days and then w/ the 1st generation of Dura Ace indexed DT controls there was no comparison in racing.
Quick and positive w/ no chatter or ghost shifting: a huge difference in function, confidence and safety. Friction was dead and a revolution had occurred.

Sun Tour went under trying to get Accushift indexing to work properly and Campag nearly followed w/ the miserable overly complicated and under performing system being discussed in this thread.

Although I ride w/ brifters in pacelines indexed Dura Ace DT controls still work w/ rock solid reliability on a good many of my solo rides.

-Bandera

Robofunc

I was lucky enough to get a low mileage chorus group with a six speed Regina extra that all works as it should. The chains on all my bikes are modern, but shifting is noticibly slower on the chorus than my indexed shimano bikes. More of a "click, pause, thunk" vs a "click—snap" if that makes any sense. Still works great every time, though. Even after getting hit by a car from the side.

Michael Angelo 

Yes, any eight speed derailleur will work.

For 10 speed Any 10 speed derailleur will work

Once it's set up you'll be amazed at how well it shifts.