Jean_TX

I need better braking, so I got some Koolstop pads - one pair dual compound, and one pair of salmon compound. I'll use one pair for the front and the other pair for the rear.

Which pads should I install for the rear brake (which I tend to use the most) ?

Thanks

prathmann

Won't make much difference either way since both sets of pads work well. The front brake gives you much more stopping power when you need to make a quick stop so I'd suggest getting into the habit of using it more. And that's where I'd be inclined to put the salmon pads

dsbrantjr

If you need better braking use your front brake. You should learn to use your front brake for most purposes; then when you need to make an emergency stop it will be a habit to use it and you will have the skill to use it effectively. Your rear brake has only a fraction of the stopping ability of the front. Many cyclists, both bi- and motor-, have come to grief by sliding into danger with a locked rear brake.

Here is an article which contains much wisdom: Braking and Turning Your Bicycle

ltxi

With all due respect to Sheldon Brown's wisdom, I don't quite agree. I've always used both front and rear brakes with a bit of rear in first bias on any and all vehicles. Perhaps just a comfortable habit from my before I got into anything two wheel racing days but I'm good with it and too old to change up now. I do agree, wholeheartedly, the fronts should bear the brunt of any heavy braking work,

Andy_K 

I agree with this. Nearly all ordinary (non-emergency) braking situations are below the threshold where the rear wheel starts to skid, so why not use the rear brake also? I think it feels better using both. I also think that in an emergency situation you will stop quicker if you were using both brakes before the rear wheel lifted and if you keep your weight back you can get an awful lot of braking done before the rear wheel skids. I don't see the downside to using both most of the time (except maybe a little extra pad wear).

Crankycrank

I'd use the salmon on the front since that's where most of your braking is and when it's wet the salmon will provide better stopping. Having said that, there is probably very little difference between the two pads but if it were my bike, salmons in the front for just that little bit of extra power.

Jaywalk3r

+1

Personally, my typical stop involves a hard activation of front brake to stop as short as possible. In the event I need to make a short emergency stop, I don't have to do anything out of the ordinary; I just stop normally. My rear brake is seldom used.

lostarchitect 

I've never heard anyone say you should only use the front. Most people say you should use both. The guy you replied to however said he had a bias for the back, and the reason why people emphasize the front is because of people like this, who rely on on the back more. That's the wrong instinct.

rmfnla

I use both brake pretty much all the time; that's what they are there for.

I'm much too OCD to have non-matching brake pads; I'd never sleep again...

Andy_K 

Fair enough. I agree that the front should be primary. What I was agreeing with in the post I quoted was the disagreement with Sheldon Brown (which I don't do lightly). In the article linked earlier, Sheldon wrote this: "Generally I advise against using both brakes at the same time. There are exceptions, however..." I just don't see why it would be necessary to advise against using both.

Jaywalk3r

Consider a relatively flat road with clean dry pavement on a solo, upright bike with no panniers or trailer, i.e., nothing that provides mass that won't shift forward under hard braking. For reasons given by Sheldon, the fastest one can stop is with the front brake alone; it's just physics. The intermediate value theorem from Calculus tells us that any amount of negative acceleration (i.e., "deceleration"), from none to the maximum, can be provided by the front brake alone. Thus, there is no need to use the rear brake. While we could supplement with the rear brake, doing so provides no extra utility; it only makes the process more complex. When practicing an action that will potentially be used as an emergency procedure, unnecessary complexity is not a good thing.

Andy_K 

I don't buy it. If you brake hard enough to lift the rear wheel, you're not really controlling the bike. That might be the theoretical maximum braking power, but I don't think it's practical and I don't think that's the way you typically stop (i.e., you don't ordinarily brake hard enough to lift the rear wheel). I know for certain that it isn't the way I usually stop.

I can brake really hard with the front brake without lifting the rear wheel. What's more, I can apply additional braking force by using the rear brake at the same time. N.B.: I'm not claiming that this is additional force beyond what the front brake is capable of producing. I'm claiming that this is additional force beyond what the front brake does produce when I'm using it in a controlled manner. So while I can achieve the theoretical maximum force with the front brake alone, I find that I can modulate my braking better at a higher level using both brakes.

Also, I would argue that in an emergency situation being in the habit of squeezing both brakes leaves less room for disastrous failure than being in the habit of squeezing just one lever. If I squeeze both and lift the rear wheel, I just have one hand doing something useless while the other does what is needed. If I squeeze with just one hand, it better be the correct one (my non-preferred hand, no less) or I'm in trouble.

American Euchre

I doubt it matters. Install them either way and report back with a quick review.

Jaywalk3r

That's okay, because I'm not selling it. Science is not something to be believed; it's something to be understood.

Actually, you can. It just takes practice, not unlike a trackstand.

It's the way I typically stop, because when I need to stop short, I want it to be second nature. I practice stoppies often.

Then either you're loading the rear wheel down with panniers, a stoker, etc., or your front brake is not adjusted properly. Or your idea of "really hard" is less than full braking.

You should be able to apply max braking forces in a controlled manner. Practice stoppies often.

Why anyone would not match their primary (front) brake lever on their dominant hand is beyond me. Failure to do so sets one up for failure in an emergency in the exact manner in which you describe.

By the way, when I talk about practicing stoppies, I don't mean practice shifting weight forward just enough to lift the rear wheel. I mean practice max braking and maintaining control as the rear wheel comes off the ground despite the body not shifting towards the bar at all.

Joe Minton

Two wheeled braking is very complicated, especially since the front and rear brakes are normally operated separately by the rider, who ‘normally’ has little experience with hard/emergency braking.

Here are some considerations:

• Weight transfer and its effect on required brake lever force.

1) The harder one brakes, the less important the rear brake and the more important the front. At or near the limits of tire adhesion this ‘weight-transfer’ effect is critical, mostly because most riders don’t understand it and have not trained for it. Critical (hard) braking lever pressure requirements are very different from ‘normal’. Almost no rider is prepared/trained for this sometimes enormous difference

• Complications of braking while steering:

1) There is only so much traction available. If one brakes the front tire very hard, near its limit of adhesion, and then adds the side-load of changing direction – the total traction available may very well be exceeded. The tire will then slide and the rider might become closely acquainted with the surface of the Earth.
2) The (directional) stabilizing force of rear tire braking is diminished as the braking force increases.

• Human factors:

1) Riders who normally apply equal force to both brakes are not ‘trained’ to adjust to the requirements of emergency braking (increased dynamic weight transfer forward).
i. When the rear wheel begins to slide, these riders almost always reduce braking of both wheels. Hence Sheldon’s (R.I.P.) admonition.
ii. This is a problem similar to that of ‘cage’ drivers who let-up on their brakes when the anti-lock system engages and begins vibrating the brake pedal. They have not been trained perhaps because the eager salesman who sold them the car was also untrained and relatively stupid.


There is so much more I could say about braking but don’t care to.

Joe

lostarchitect 

I agree, I pretty much always use both. I was an avid motorcyclist before I started bicycling a lot and I think I learned good braking practices from that.

Andy_K 

I agree with this statement about science, but it really feels to me as if you are using science like a believer, trying to beat me with a dogmatic stick. At no point did I dispute the science involved. On the contrary, I affirmed it. What I'm disputing is the application.

As for the bike being under control when you lift the rear wheel, perhaps I should have been more precise. What I mean to say is that you have more control of the bike when both wheels are on the ground. I'll grant that in many circumstances you can keep control of the bike while traveling in a straight line while braking hard enough to lift the rear wheel, and you will usually be able to stop the bike quickly enough that the straight line motion is sufficient. However, if I need to steer the bike, I find that having both wheels on the ground is helpful.

When I talk about braking hard without lifting the rear wheel, maybe my idea of really hard braking and your idea of really hard braking are different. I mean something vague like coming to a stop in a very short time/distance, not braking as hard as I can. When I come to a stop in normal situations, I'm not anywhere near the force that it would take to lift the rear wheel. I can brake a good bit harder than I would for my normal stop and still keep the rear wheel engaged. That's what I meant. I can lift the rear wheel if I want/need to, but I very rarely do. Also, I weigh 200+ pounds, so I've got a lot of weight to shift back over the rear wheel.

What it really comes down to for me is that I prefer the feel of using both brakes in normal circumstances. Beyond that, I think that using both brakes has advantages in many near-emergency situations and in the case of needing to produce the fastest stop possible I can't imagine what difference it makes whether I'm using both brakes or just the front.

techsensei

It's interesting to me that tires are rarely talked about with regards to stopping.

Jaywalk3r

I'm simply trying to point out that, and why, Sheldon was correct.

We address normal stops differently. Unless there is reason for me to do otherwise, my normal, run of the mill stop involves max braking. I came to bicycle commuting from a skydiving background, and have retained that mindset. As a skydiver, I practice my emergency procedures frequently, so that they are second nature when needed. One of the ways that mindset manifests itself on a bicycle is taking advantage of ordinary stops to practice max braking. To me, it makes more sense to have to modify my normal braking procedure in order to stop more slowly than it does to need to modify my normal procedure in order to stop more quickly. In an emergency stop situation, I want to be able to stop normally, so that my brain can be focused on other aspects of the situation.

lostarchitect 

I think you are pretty unique in that!

techsensei

Do you stop your car the same way?!

Jaywalk3r

I own a bike. Why would I own a car? Besides, piloting a bicycle has very little in common with operating a car.

himespau 

I find it less jarring on the body to gently ease into a stop. Plus, I'm lazy and like to stop pedaling and coast if I have an excuse to do so (like a stop or turn coming up). Riding full bore up until the last second then slamming on the brakes sounds less fun but maybe better training. I guess that's why I'm fat.

rmfnla

Why indeed..?

lostarchitect 

Don't you lock up the wheels that way? I'd think it'd shorten tire life.