corrado33

Recently I've been contemplating the fit on my bike (yeah yeah we have a fitting forum, which hardly gets visitors.) I've noticed that when I'm riding a couple of my bikes, I feel hunched. I've oft had a lower back pain problem when riding, but I generally just ignore it. (To the point where I don't remember if my back hurts after a certain ride.) Some rides my back will hurt, other rides it won't. I haven't figured out why. It hasn't bothered me enough to want to change my position significantly.

So I started playing around. I've found that I can "roll" my hips forward from my "normal" position. This seems to produce a more "straight" back, although I've never photographed myself in this position so it in reality I have no idea. Rolling my hips makes the handlebars go from in front of the front hub, to behind the front hub. (Looking down.) Both positions are relatively comfortable. I haven't been able to do a "long ride" with my hips rolled forward as it then scrunches my shoulders due to the "too close" bars.

I tried googling the above questions, but I've found no consensus online. Looking at the pros isn't helpful because they do anything to get aero, even endure pain. Yeah, no thanks. So my question is this. Which is more correct: A curved back or a straight back, assuming both are relatively comfortable.

More info:

I've also found that when I DO roll my hips forward, I need a longer stem as it moves my entire upper body forward as well. Not by much mind you, but by enough that I feel my handlebars are then too close. It also changes my pedaling. It feels like I'm pushing the pedals around with my toes when I roll my hips, but that may be due to the fact that it ALSO feels like my saddle is too far forward when I do this.

Any ideas? Yes, a full fit would be great, but I'm not confident that the only shop in town who does fits would do a decent job for $250. I've called and asked who performs the fits before and they told me "The most senior mechanic currently in the shop."

fietsbob

JRA? what is comfortable wins .. No cycling posture police exists .. pro race coaching aside ..

rolling my hips back makes my 'taint' pain free, and as Im packing a over 60 belly sitting up wins

over my then 140 pound youth ..

My father also was slender at his 30, and filled out as his age doubled.

ypsetihw

this is what the fizik fit system talks about. it's not necessarily what is correct but if you have a more flexible spine, it allows you to get low and out of the wind while leaving your hips upright, which changes the pedal stroke and allows different saddle shapes you can use and changes pressure points in your sit area.

personally I find that I like to move around in the saddle a lot. I would say that I use both positions often (straight or curved back/hips rolled or upright) depending on how I'm feeling, how long I've been riding, and if I'm carrying a backpack or not.

I'm guessing you're looking for scientific data like a wind tunnel test that shows which way is more aero, but I haven't seen anything conclusive on the subject. TT/Tri athletes may have stronger opinions on this because they can't draft and often spend A LOT of time and money trying to optimize position on the bike.

rydabent

I find this thread humorous. As a bent rider that sits back reclined and I not compressing my lungs hunch over like people on a DF bike do. Now I know DF riders wont like this but especially road race riders trying to make themselves more aero all hunched over remind me of and old dog taking his pleasure on his girl friend.

JohnDThompson 

Well, the reason racers use diamond frames is because recumbents are prohibited for UCI sanctioned events.

kzin

Even given what you say about the 'aero or die' nature of pro riding you still see riders at both extremes.
Practically vertical lower back to nearly horizontal lower back,

79pmooney

I never thought much on hips rolled forward vs back except in terms of seat comfort. (More on this later.) But 30 years ago, I had a huge breakthrough regarding handlebar reach. I had been struggling with discomfort on my rain/winter/city fix gear, especially climbing when I never felt I was getting enough oxygen and getting anaerobic cramps in my torso. That bike was a 61 cm Miyata 610, 2 cm bigger than optimum and spotting laid back angles, a long head tube and shortish top tube. I was using a 130 stem.

Then I had this thought. On a proper fitting bike, my shoulders should be "here". (A point in space above and forward of the bottom bracket.) My arms swing about my shoulders. So any point on the arc about that imaginary point should be an OK place to locate the handlebars (well, within reason). I located that shoulder point sitting on my good bike. Drew up a sketch with the BB, my shoulder socket and handlebars located. Drew the arc through the handlebars using my shoulder socket as the center. Next I located the top headset of my commuter. Drew a horizontal stem an appropriate height above the headset. Measured the distance from the stem-line/handlebar arc intersection back to the stem-line/HS centerline intersection. 7". (I did all the measurements with standard US tape measure, not bike-centric metric.)

Took this sketch to a frame builder. He make the stem. 178 mm. I cal it a 180. Put it on and wow! The anaerobic cramping was gone. My breathing felt deep and easy. Back felt much better after rides. (Also much, much better upwind, both speed AND comfort!) It did change seat dynamics. I sat less on my sit bones and more on the softer parts forward and details of the seat shape became more important. But there was also less weight on my butt, so that helped. 5 years later, I experienced the next fit-related breakthrough - grooved and cut-out seats, now on all my bikes.)

All my bikes have undergone changes because of that breakthrough, getting longer stems or being purchased/frame built and set-up with that in mind from the beginning. The use of the arc for locating HBS has been a very useful tool. (I simplify this arc to a straight line. For the 6" or so of appropriate HB locations, that arc is nearly a line, for me, located very conveniently on a slant with slope 2 cms horizontal and 1 cm up iin line with the steerer centerline. So, if I replace a horizontal quill stem with one 2 cms longer and raise it 1 cm, I have not changed my shoulder location, overall fit and breathing and back comfort.

So when I go to look at a new bike or frame, I take measurements to locate the HS vs the bottom bracket. I take that home and sketch it up and see what stem would be required to make it work. (I also measure to the dropouts so I can see if my weight will be acceptable.) I have such long arms that many bikes would be ridiculous even if I got them to fit.

Maybe you will find something in here to be useful. Good luck. Fit is the most important aspect of a bike, by far!

Ben

no1mad 

Perhaps it's because who follow Google searches end up in the other forums and presume that they are the proper place(s) to post their questions?

CliffordK

I've thought about back shape when sitting in a chair.

It sounds a bit awkward on a bike, but I'll have to revisit the idea of a straight (concave) back. I'm also frequently carrying a backpack adding to potential strain.

Another thing to keep in mind is there are a couple of different hip flexors including the Psoas Major which attaches to the lumbar spine. I tend to get bogged down with the hill climbs a bit which seems to affect the back. So, perhaps more spinning and less mashing and pulling up. Although I'm not beyond stressing all the muscles.

Pendergast

No idea which is considered "better", but I ride with hips rolled forward & a flat back and have been riding that way for about 30 years. It's just more comfortable for me. That's my road bike position(I ride more upright on my mountain bikes.)

If you go that route, you'll almost certainly need to move your saddle back somewhat to balance your torso, and you may need a longer stem. I've never been professionally fitted, but Steve Hogg's ideas about fitting make a lot of sense to me.

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...or-road-bikes/

OldTryGuy

WOW!!!!! Glad that worked for you. I got a headache reading it.

For myself, almost 40 years ago I read a book that revealed that the pros were setting up by.....

1-clear frame top tube by 1''
2-1.09 X inseam for seat height.
3-ball of foot over pedal axle for cleat position fore/aft then point toes in slightly
4-plumb line dropped from knee indent intersecting pedal axle for seat fore/aft
5-grab hoods and handlebar should cover front axle for stem length or handlebar reach

wphamilton

Straighter is better for the lower back.

I'm sure it does change the bike fit since the torso is stretched out longer. But maybe not as much as it feels like, since a change like that is bound to feel strange at first regardless.

corrado33

I actually use fizik saddles on my bikes. I'm a sssssnake... (I can put my face between my knees if I wish.) So I have one of their "flat" saddles.

I never have any trouble breathing, even when I'm down all of the way in the drops and bent over trying to avoid a massive headwind. Traditional road bikes are a compromise. They're good uphill, they're ok downhill, they're good on the flats. Recumbents are bad uphill, great downhill, and great on the flats. Comparing them is stupid. Bents will continue to be ridden by old men and people with health problems. And your post is useless, thank you for that.

As for everyone else. I'm not trying to get more aero. I couldn't care less. I'm just trying to find what will cause me fewer problems in the future. That's all. What is considered more "correct."

rydabent

Blame the stiff necked old fools of the UCI. With them suddenly it is 1895.

Marcus_Ti

They want to keep bicycle racing resembling bicycles, not recliners on wheels. It is like complaining about the Country Music Awards not giving a prize to a rapper.

These days there's also the simple matter of practicality, how many diamond-frame bicycles can you fit on a SAG car roof, a dozen? How many 'bents can you fit on a SAG car roof, 3? And good luck doing on-road mid-race brake/derailleur/etc adjustments without pulling over at the side of the road

ypsetihw

I'm almost 200 lbs and have wider sit bones, so even though I am a chameleon, I ride the Aliante, and find it very comfortable (or maybe it just looks so good I think that it's comfortable, but either way I don't care). I wish they offered some of their flat saddles in wider widths.

My old saddle was a nashbar fs1 143 wide, flat, moderate padding, cutout. Honestly it's the best $25 saddle I've ever tried, even did a century on it last year! I'm putting it back on my new utility bike as soon as the build comes together.

corrado33

I honestly don't think bents would come close to winning any professional UCI race. Professional races are built around drafting, tactics, climbs, sprints, all of which bents can't do. You can't ride in a paceline/peloton, both climbing and sprinting are won by upright bikes. Every aero advantage the bent has is negated by the peloton. "Oh but what if you were to use a fairing?" Yes, because we all want to watch 250 racers go by on what are effectively identical pedal powered cars slathered in sponsor logos.

It's funny, if you look on google about bents vs. normal bikes, you get the typical "bents are faster" responses from all the bent fanboys. Then, every third result or so you get a realist. Someone who says "Well, not really." "Bents CAN be built to go faster, but the large majority of them aren't. Most of them have as much or more frontal area as an upright." Not only that but most of the realists say that sure, the bents will beat an upright on the downhill, but the upright will catch up on the uphills and turns. Bents have their own problems. Sure, you get neck cramps from looking UP on an upright, but you also get neck cramps from looking DOWN on a bent. Riding in the rain sucks as the rain is falling on your front instead of your back. But no, the bent riders never mention these things.

italktocats

whatever doesnt give you any pain in the long run..

Wheever

I must say I get a bit confused when cyclists start talking about "hips forward" and "hips back". Orthopedically, when you're talking about "hips forward" you're talking about the pelvis, and pelvis forward means, basically, thrusting the pubic bone forward. (Like, you know...don't make me spell it out.)

So, to me, when I rotate my pelvis "forward," I'm *rounding* my back, and actually putting all my weight on my sit bones, with pretty much nothing else touching, at all. I do this when I'm in the drops so as to lift my perenial area and not get the tender bits squashed/abraded.

Just commenting.

CliffordK

Harder for an upright bike to draft behind a low racer recumbent.

GeoKrpan

In yoga class it is taught to roll the hips back and to keep the back "filled out".

Here's a pic of Dave Zabriske with a filled out back.

wphamilton

In Yoga you bend the back all different ways. With all due respect it's not cycling - we don't get shocks to the lower back with Yoga, don't hold those positions for extended time, aren't really combining those positions with strenuous efforts.

There are people who ride both ways. Generally speaking, new riders bend their backs a lot because they lack flexibility, and it often results in lower back pain.

GovernorSilver

I think when people say "hips forward" they mean the picture on the left:



Source: Pelvic Tilt - Manchester-Bedford Myoskeletal LLC

Based on these pics, I don't think "hips back" (swayback) is possible when riding a bike, unless your posture is 90 degrees upright. Dunno what applies for bent bike riders.

corrado33

In all fairness he's barely even using the saddle in this picture, I don't think it's a great comparison.

Thanks! I'm going to try a slightly longer stem and push my saddle back a smidge, so I can perhaps use both positions interchangeably.

corrado33

Yes. I'd compare it to "slouching" on a chair vs. sitting up straight. When I say rotate my hips forward, I mean my pelvis forward, as in the first picture. AKA sitting up straight with shoulders back. The second I'd compare to "slouching" and when I say rotate my hips backward, that's what I mean. Now, I certainly don't "slouch" on the bike, but that's the direction I move.