NoPhart

I'm in the market for a 48V/20Ah Triangle Battery Pack for my Bafang BBS02B 750W/48V mid-drive E-bike build. From the research I've been able to do, I think I want LiFePO4 batteries for there 5-7 year life and high safety factor. I don't need a high power high Amp battery pack, as my BBS02B is stock and will be setup as PAS only. Longer range is my goal (50+ miles).

What pre-made triangle battery pack options do I have?

There is a local guy here in SoCal that is the highest volume seller of battery packs on eBay named Rafe at CaliBike. Has anyone used him? His triangle bag measurements appear to be a perfect fit for my frame and his price is good too. His packs are pretested 18650 Lithium PVC batteries (whatever that means?). Customers seem happy with them, but I think I really want some good high quality LiFePO4 batteries in this build.

All thoughts welcome.

chas58

18650 is NOT LiFePO4. It is possible, but it would have very low voltage per cell.

Ping is the best for those big heavy LiFePO4. Check the weight compared to a 18650 pack. My LiFePO4 weighs 3x as much as my high energy 18650.

Em3ev and Luna cycles make good 18650 triangle packs.

NoPhart

Weight! Isn't that the never ending be-otch of everything E-bike?

I know the 18635 aren't LiFePO4, but I didn't know they weighed subtantially more (?).

I found somewhere that the LiFePO4 have a life of about 5-7 years and LiPoly about 3 years (with lower recharge cycles). I haven't seen a Li-Ion life stated in years, only recharge cycles and they seem to vary drastically.

If sticking with the 18635 Lithium battteries, what are the different kinds and their strengths and weaknesses? (GA, NR1, L3, etc...). I'm seeing crazy price differences with the same stated specifications...

Doc_Wui

My thoughts on LiFePO4. I knew they were heavier, as confirmed by chas58. Weight isn't that big an issue on a powered ebike, but are they available in a form factor that fits your triangle bag (and still looks good - I have shallow values - gotta look good) ? Then is the higher cost worth it for 5 year life, given that battery technology by year 2018 might well motivate you to replace them anyway? You also need a separate charger, unless you have a multi-voltage model already.

NoPhart

This battery stuff is very confusing and prices are all over the place. It's difficult to determine who is telling the truth about there products too. I can't find any confirmation of a 3x heavier weight for the LiFeP04 and no weight per power output numbers either. I did find this quote:

“Cobalt is more expensive than the iron and phosphate used in Li-iron. So the lithium-iron phosphate battery costs less (safer materials make it less expensive to manufacture and to recycle) to the consumer than the lithium-ion battery.”

BMS has a 48V20Ah 38120 LiFeP04 32 Cells 2P16S pack for $530, but it isn't a triangle and the weight isn't posted.

Can anyone see a problem with this Li-Ion triangle pack?

48V20T Electric Bicycle ebike 48V 20AH Lithium Triangle Pack Battery and Charger 1 YR Warranty | Calibike

I see Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCo / Li-NMC) pbattery packs that claim to be UN 38.3 Certified (whatever that means?) for 3 times the price of the Li-Ion pack above.

EBikeFL 

I've owned five Ping 48v 15 Ah batteries and none of them lasted anywhere near five years. They all averaged about 14 months when drained down to 5 amp-hours.
Your best bet is LunaCycle; in fact, they have a sale going on now on a 60v triangle battery.

Ping batteries also now take 8 weeks for delivery. Use 18650 battery packs and if you can afford to charge them to 3.92 volts (~80%) and deplete them to 3.15 volts (~30%). Using these parameters they'll be good for ~4000 charge cycles. Purchase the Advanced Luna Charger that will allow you to set the 80% charge level.

Maxing out the amp-hours will also help, ie., use batteries in parallel to double your amp-hours. You'll be a Tesla on two wheels!

NoPhart

I don't need 60V for my application; 48V is plenty and 52V will work. Luna has some nice GA triangle battery packs, but their prices seem high when you calculate total costs (battery, charger, bag, shipping, etc...).

Why can't battery builders/sellers answer questions in a straight forward manner? Is it a first language difference thing or do they intentionally try to be vage because they have something to hide about what they are accually selling? It reminds me of the E-bike range game.

Can anyone tell me what brand and type battery a HTCN 18650 2200mAh 3.6V battery is?

My best guess is HETER(?) Cobalt(?) Nickel(?) ???

The builder claims his packs are AODA brand and just refers me to a specification page for the battery stated above. This builder claims 800 cycles, but the specifications state 500 cycles(?). Are they AODA or HETER? What is the actual battery type?

Everyone "claims" any 18650 Li-Ion battery is the "same as Tesla's batteries" to somehow imply Tesla quality I guess. All this BS reminds me of everything China! Don't get me started on the wide spread known issues with Chinese products of all kinds...

I would think by now there would be a straight forward "best" battery type for a "stock unmodified" Bafang BBS02B 750W/48V motor for best general performance and range. Or at least a simple matrix of options that is easy to understand.

Didn't mean to go off on rant, but researching E-bikes (for 1.5 years now and batteries has turned out to be a very frustrating process.

Doc_Wui

Your thread title says "Best 48V/20AH Triangle". Seems to me that would be EM3EV. Per a recent video I saw on batteries, a dismantled EM3EV Dolphin uses formed trays to separate the cells, insulated lips around the electrodes, and seems far more robust than a typical battery held together with hot melt glue and tack welded nickel strips.

Best is not cheap. Their triangle costs $545. Add $245 for 25R cell upgrade that gets you 22.1 AH. Maybe $100 for shipping? So we're at $900, but it is 9P. That's over twice the cells we see in a $450 4P Shark battery.

It's too expensive for me, but I don't need the best.

speedy25

Dont know if thiis will help, but there is a thread on batteries in the Endless Sphere facebook page.

I'm in the same boat and will be purchasing a battery for the BBS02 I got for a good price on Singles day.

-SP

EBikeFL 

A good place to go to get educated on batteries and in particular 18650 cells is Basic to Advanced Battery Information from Battery University

I've been looking into making my own battery packs and using copper instead of nickel; however, the only decent welder I've seen so far to do it is a machine that costs $24,000. So like Doc Wui says, "Best is not cheap". The better the battery is built the more expensive it will be. As an e-bike rider you have to ask the question, "Do I want to get stuck on the road with a second rate battery?" If getting stuck is not an issue with you then the cheaper batteries should be sufficient.

Remember, as e-bike riders we determine what continues to sell. If we continue to buy cheaply made batteries, vendors will continue to manufacture them.

NoPhart

Thanks all. Sometimes I think I'm going banana's researching this stuff...

I'll start with the this:

Types of Lithium-ion Batteries ? Battery University

Now I just need the builders/sellers to accurately tell me which one they are using.

awm72

I do similar research on everything, you get so far in you forget the original reason. from PC's, operating systems. Once I step into the hardware of anything its like stepping into quicksand and everyone has an opinion. when I saw the title of this forum I thought "Best" was an adjective, hahaha. if that were true I would have said just get what you feel comfortable paying for, the rest is just smoke and mirrors. Look where you are in your build, from where you started. that is what I admire about your endeavor. just keep going and doing.

2old

I was going to start a separate thread on actual battery expense. Everyone brags about the $0.10 or whatever to charge a battery, but nobody seems to factor in the battery. I've had two 36V batteries that basically expired after one year or about 50 charge cycles maybe a little more or less, but this equates to $5-$8 per outing. However, this doesn't "APPEAR" to occur with major manufacturers (Specialized, Haibike etc), and many of them have 2-3 year warranties like BionX. BTW, my Luna battery is still going strong after a year and anticipate good service from it. I'd suggest Luna or em3ev and keep at 20-80% (charge fully just before you ride if you think you need 100%). IMO, anything from BMS is a total crapshoot. Also, AFAIK (but could be wrong) the only "good" LiFePO4 batteries are pouch cells. Only thing stopping me from a BionX kit is the dealer in my neighborhood and would like to buy something like that locally.

gsa103

Tesla uses Panasonic cells. If they aren't legit Panasonic cells, then they definitely aren't the same. They're just another generic Chinese cell (Samsung and a few other excluded).

The reason Luna is much more expensive is that they use name brand quality cells. I have had literally zero positive experiences with off-brand Li-Ion batteries. Every camera/phone/tool batteries that was "cheap" has been much worse that the OEM version.

The big difference in batteries is typically the self-discharge current, how quickly it loses charge with no load. High self-discharge means that the composition isn't very good and the cell won't have a good lifespan. This is also buried on spec sheet, if you can even find one.

350htrr

I have 3 years, 7,000 or so Km on my battery and I don't really even notice a drop in performance yet... Mind you the battery cost $900.

2old

350, you're one of the positive examples that I'm referencing. I'm with BionX, big OEM companies, Luna (assuming this battery lasts) or em3ev from now on although I have no direct experience with em3ev.

NoPhart

I know these are not the "same" as Tesla other than being a "Li-Ion battery" made in China of yet un-named chenistry, but claimed pre-tested to make sure only the good ones are used.

This is the method used for storage drain (self-discharge):

=

ITEM
Normal Storage

STANDARD
Residual Capacity ≥90% Initial Capacity
Recuperative Capacity ≥95% Initial
Internal Resistance Increase Rate ≤30%

TEST METHOD
Test the batteries’ initial state and capacity; store the battery for 30 days after standard charge, test the final state; Discharge at 0.5C to 2.75V, then test batteries’ residual capacity. Then after normal charge, discharge at 0.5C to 2.75V, then test the batteries’ recovery capacity, Three cycles are permitted for this test, If one of the three cycles can reach the standard, it represents the battery has reached the standard.

STANDARD TEST ENVIRONMENT
Unless especially specified, all tests stated in this Product Specification are conducted at below condition:
Temperature: 25±2℃
Humidity: (65±20) % RH

NOTES
The definitions of some nomenclatures of this specification:
(1) Standard charge: 0.5C charge at 25℃±2℃ to 4.2V, then change to charge with constant voltage till the current less than or equal to 0.01C.
(2) Initial state: battery initial voltage, internal resistance and appearance.
(3) Final state: battery final voltage, internal resistance and appearance.
(4) Residual Capacity: The first discharge capacity after being tested by the specific procedure.
(5) Standard cycle: charge at 1C, then store for 30min, discharge at 1C to the 2.75V.
(6) Recovery Capacity: The discharge capacity by specifically charge-discharge cycle repeatedly after being tested by the specific procedure.
(7) All batteries tested above are within 60 days unless there are other regulations. Otherwise, part of the electrical properties may be inconsistent with the above parameters (For instance, discharge capacity of the batteries may be less than the minimum calibration capacity after 6 months).

=

If they don't pass, they don't get used.

Unfortunately you don't really even know if batteries labeled Panasonic are actually Panasonic inside and produced by them. China is the master of deception and knockoff crap. Heck, some Chinese manufacturers were willing to put sulfur in drywall and melamine in dog/baby foods as filler! My own dog almosted died because of that...

NoPhart

I guess what I really mean by "best" is "opitmal"; everything considered.

2old

IMO, there are two choices, either Luna (a reseller, but physically close so potentially more reliable) or em3ev (in China and owned by an expat of the UK who has an excellent reputation). To me, anything else is even more of a crapshoot.

NoPhart

Some of the reasons I'm seriously looking at this supplier is that he is local to me her in Orange County CA, has a one year warranty, charger is included, buyers seem to be happy with them, and the black with blue piping triangle battery bag has a indicator light and on/off switch built in.

Leakdown seems to be a concern with all Li-Ion batteries that are over 6 months old...