The Lane Positioning Thread
12-13-17, 06:26 PM
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The Lane Positioning Thread
Proposal: make this a Sticky Thread to discourage Lane Positioning discussion from dominating other threads, but allowing at least this place for the discussion (see also: The Helmet Thread 2).
"Of all cycling skills, road positioning is probably the most important, for
it is through their position on the road that cyclist can exert the greatest
influence on their safety in traffic." -John Franklin, Cyclecraft
The epiphany which transforms us into confident cyclists is grasping the simple (albeit counter-intuitive) fact that we have control of our environment. That control comes from predictability, communication and (believe it or not) self-image.
Bicycling in traffic is a dance you must lead
cyclingsavvy.org/2010/06/you-lead-the-dance/
https://vimeo.com/9827254
FAQ: WHY DO YOU RIDE LIKE THAT?
"Of all cycling skills, road positioning is probably the most important, for
it is through their position on the road that cyclist can exert the greatest
influence on their safety in traffic." -John Franklin, Cyclecraft
The epiphany which transforms us into confident cyclists is grasping the simple (albeit counter-intuitive) fact that we have control of our environment. That control comes from predictability, communication and (believe it or not) self-image.
Bicycling in traffic is a dance you must lead
cyclingsavvy.org/2010/06/you-lead-the-dance/
https://vimeo.com/9827254
FAQ: WHY DO YOU RIDE LIKE THAT?
- How are your road and lane positioning skills?
- How do you balance "riding in a conspicuous position" with "keeping out of the way"?
- What have you tried?
- What has worked in terms of getting safe and friendly cooperation and treatment from motorists?
- What hasn't?
Last edited by Ninety5rpm; 12-13-17 at 07:18 PM.
12-13-17, 06:51 PM
#2
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Why take the lane? It is the best way to communicate to drivers that the lane is too narrow to share side-by-side, and they need to use another lane to pass. So many drivers can't judge for themselves, and if you move to the curb, it communicates that you are trying to make room for them to get by, so they try. If you ride down the middle of a narrow lane, you communicate that they must find another lane to pass. So simple. I wish this were covered in driver training in every jurisdiction.
I generally take the lane on all narrow roads and only move over if there is someone waiting behind me. I use a helmet-mounted mirror that makes it easy. It takes some experience, though, to recognize a wide lane from a narrow lane.
One caution: taking the lane (i.e., controlling the lane) only works when the difference in speed between the cars and the cyclist is low (20 mph/30 kmh or less), IMO. When speeds are higher, drivers may not have enough time to react to a cyclist in front of them, especially if the car in front just pulled out to pass and especially if their attention is divided/distracted.
I generally take the lane on all narrow roads and only move over if there is someone waiting behind me. I use a helmet-mounted mirror that makes it easy. It takes some experience, though, to recognize a wide lane from a narrow lane.
One caution: taking the lane (i.e., controlling the lane) only works when the difference in speed between the cars and the cyclist is low (20 mph/30 kmh or less), IMO. When speeds are higher, drivers may not have enough time to react to a cyclist in front of them, especially if the car in front just pulled out to pass and especially if their attention is divided/distracted.
12-13-17, 07:19 PM
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Proposal: make this a Sticky Thread to discourage Lane Positioning discussion from dominating other threads, but allowing at least this place for the discussion (see also: The Helmet Thread 2).
"Of all cycling skills, road positioning is probably the most important, for
it is through their position on the road that cyclist can exert the greatest
influence on their safety in traffic." -John Franklin, Cyclecraft
The epiphany which transforms us into confident cyclists is grasping the simple (albeit counter-intuitive) fact that we have control of our environment. That control comes from predictability, communication and (believe it or not) self-image.
Bicycling in traffic is a dance you must lead
cyclingsavvy.org/2010/06/you-lead-the-dance/
https://vimeo.com/9827254
FAQ: WHY DO YOU RIDE LIKE THAT?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU4nKKq02BU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CudJvSbS2aY
"Of all cycling skills, road positioning is probably the most important, for
it is through their position on the road that cyclist can exert the greatest
influence on their safety in traffic." -John Franklin, Cyclecraft
The epiphany which transforms us into confident cyclists is grasping the simple (albeit counter-intuitive) fact that we have control of our environment. That control comes from predictability, communication and (believe it or not) self-image.
Bicycling in traffic is a dance you must lead
cyclingsavvy.org/2010/06/you-lead-the-dance/
https://vimeo.com/9827254
FAQ: WHY DO YOU RIDE LIKE THAT?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU4nKKq02BU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CudJvSbS2aY
- How are your road and lane positioning skills?
- How do you balance "riding in a conspicuous position" with "keeping out of the way"?
- What have you tried?
- What has worked in terms of getting safe and friendly cooperation and treatment from motorists?
- What hasn't?
Makes no difference whether the label for it is called lane positioning or bicycle driving or vehicular cycling or effective cycling, the bottom line is always the same emphasis on the same dogma, promoted by the same people, extracted from anecdotes and speculation about the alleged increased risk of riding on the right side of a street or road, always without any credible evidence of the risk reduction results of their proposals.
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 12-13-17 at 07:29 PM.
12-13-17, 08:15 PM
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There already is a specific place for this sort of discussion/proselytization; https://www.bikeforums.net/vehicular-cycling-vc/ That subforum was created several years ago because there was one or two posters who insisted on inserting their version of lane positioning theory and promoting a proprietary course of instruction/book into every other thread on A&S, just like currently being experienced on A&S.
Makes no difference whether the label for it is called lane positioning or bicycle driving or vehicular cycling or effective cycling, the bottom line is always the same emphasis on the same dogma, promoted by the same people, extracted from anecdotes and speculation about the alleged increased risk of riding on the right side of a street or road, always without any credible evidence of the risk reduction results of their proposals.
Makes no difference whether the label for it is called lane positioning or bicycle driving or vehicular cycling or effective cycling, the bottom line is always the same emphasis on the same dogma, promoted by the same people, extracted from anecdotes and speculation about the alleged increased risk of riding on the right side of a street or road, always without any credible evidence of the risk reduction results of their proposals.
12-13-17, 08:31 PM
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The anti-facilities views and the promotion of lane positioning "skills" are joined at the hip of the take-the-lane dogmatists. The Cycling Savvy promoters are smart enough to lose the insulting rhetoric that is the calling card of the promoters of Vehicular Cycling.
12-13-17, 08:39 PM
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The anti-facilities views and the promotion of lane positioning "skills" are joined at the hip of the take-the-lane dogmatists. The Cycling Savvy promoters are smart enough to lose the insulting rhetoric that is the calling card of the promoters of Vehicular Cycling.
12-13-17, 08:45 PM
#7
Senior Member
I generally ride in the center of the lane when there is no traffic, moving to the right as traffic approaches unless prohibited by conditions. Seems to work best for everyone involved. On roads with shoulders, I ride the shoulder except when making left turns. But I'm fortunate that the shoulders in these parts tend to be clean and well paved.
12-13-17, 08:48 PM
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12-14-17, 12:30 AM
#9
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Last I checked there wasn't an entire Helmet subforum for that discussion.
I would agree that "taking the lane" is the central point of VC philosophy and changing the name to Savvy Cycling or whatever is just a backdoor way of avoiding the negative connotations that vehement advocates bring to it. To have a new advocate make the same rebranded arguments again and create a whole new set of friction seems pointless. Almost every current thread in A&S has the same redundant rhetoric from one poster. One would think such an advocate would be glad to have a very specific place dedicated solely to discussing their philosophy with whomever agrees with that approach.
I would agree that "taking the lane" is the central point of VC philosophy and changing the name to Savvy Cycling or whatever is just a backdoor way of avoiding the negative connotations that vehement advocates bring to it. To have a new advocate make the same rebranded arguments again and create a whole new set of friction seems pointless. Almost every current thread in A&S has the same redundant rhetoric from one poster. One would think such an advocate would be glad to have a very specific place dedicated solely to discussing their philosophy with whomever agrees with that approach.
Last edited by Happy Feet; 12-14-17 at 12:34 AM.
12-14-17, 08:13 AM
#10
Senior Member
I generally ride in the center of the lane when there is no traffic, moving to the right as traffic approaches unless prohibited by conditions. Seems to work best for everyone involved. On roads with shoulders, I ride the shoulder except when making left turns. But I'm fortunate that the shoulders in these parts tend to be clean and well paved.
In my opinion, there is no one answer for all conditions. No one is going to direct ME on what to do or how to ride, regardless of their perceived "expert" opinion, statistical data, personal bias etc. I'm not an idiot and have a relatively decent quantity of common sense assigned to me. To think there is one correct course of action or "answer" to all conditions, or that it's always correct to "take the lane"...or not, is well, that just doesn't take a lot of common sense to see the folly of it all. Each person should ride their own ride, according to conditions, terrain, and traffic, and make their own judgments as to where and how to ride by applying the same criteria; common sense + current conditions.
Sometimes that means taking the lane. Sometimes it means moving to the right. Sometimes taking the lane means being safe. Sometimes it means being a jerk.
I don't fault anyone for their "zeal" in being in one camp (Take the lane) or another (Always stay far right) . That's their choice. It's just that it get's tiring coming on here and being evangelized by one or the other when they have no idea of MY area, type of ride, nor apparent consideration for different riding conditions. Most of us know our own circumstances best, and make decisions on each ride, and even portions of each ride, based on current conditions and circumstances.
At the end of the day, it's up to me to get home safe, not some internet expert.
Last edited by WNCGoater; 12-14-17 at 08:17 AM.
12-14-17, 08:53 AM
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Proposal: make this a Sticky Thread to discourage Lane Positioning discussion from dominating other threads, but allowing at least this place for the discussion (see also: The Helmet Thread 2).
"Of all cycling skills, road positioning is probably the most important, for
it is through their position on the road that cyclist can exert the greatest
influence on their safety in traffic." -John Franklin, Cyclecraft
The epiphany which transforms us into confident cyclists is grasping the simple (albeit counter-intuitive) fact that we have control of our environment. That control comes from predictability, communication and (believe it or not) self-image.
Bicycling in traffic is a dance you must lead
cyclingsavvy.org/2010/06/you-lead-the-dance/
https://vimeo.com/9827254
FAQ: WHY DO YOU RIDE LIKE THAT?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU4nKKq02BU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CudJvSbS2aY
"Of all cycling skills, road positioning is probably the most important, for
it is through their position on the road that cyclist can exert the greatest
influence on their safety in traffic." -John Franklin, Cyclecraft
The epiphany which transforms us into confident cyclists is grasping the simple (albeit counter-intuitive) fact that we have control of our environment. That control comes from predictability, communication and (believe it or not) self-image.
Bicycling in traffic is a dance you must lead
cyclingsavvy.org/2010/06/you-lead-the-dance/
https://vimeo.com/9827254
FAQ: WHY DO YOU RIDE LIKE THAT?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU4nKKq02BU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CudJvSbS2aY
- How are your road and lane positioning skills?
- How do you balance "riding in a conspicuous position" with "keeping out of the way"?
- What have you tried?
- What has worked in terms of getting safe and friendly cooperation and treatment from motorists?
- What hasn't?
12-14-17, 08:56 AM
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Last I checked there wasn't an entire Helmet subforum for that discussion.
I would agree that "taking the lane" is the central point of VC philosophy and changing the name to Savvy Cycling or whatever is just a backdoor way of avoiding the negative connotations that vehement advocates bring to it. To have a new advocate make the same rebranded arguments again and create a whole new set of friction seems pointless. Almost every current thread in A&S has the same redundant rhetoric from one poster. One would think such an advocate would be glad to have a very specific place dedicated solely to discussing their philosophy with whomever agrees with that approach.
I would agree that "taking the lane" is the central point of VC philosophy and changing the name to Savvy Cycling or whatever is just a backdoor way of avoiding the negative connotations that vehement advocates bring to it. To have a new advocate make the same rebranded arguments again and create a whole new set of friction seems pointless. Almost every current thread in A&S has the same redundant rhetoric from one poster. One would think such an advocate would be glad to have a very specific place dedicated solely to discussing their philosophy with whomever agrees with that approach.
12-14-17, 09:13 AM
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Lane position is another example of how everything is becoming polarized in our society. Yes, there is good reason to help people gain confidence and realize that not only do they have the right to move out from the fog line and own the lane, but it can also be safer.
However, everything is situational, and simply having rights doesn't mean we need to exercise them full time. I look at lane position more from a tactical viewpoint, and place myself where it seems best all round for that particular stretch of road.
On a 2 mile stretch of road I ride often, I use various lane positions, according to lane width, traffic, my speed, sightlines, and whatever other factors may arise. As such, I'll typically change position 5 or more times in those two miles.
However, everything is situational, and simply having rights doesn't mean we need to exercise them full time. I look at lane position more from a tactical viewpoint, and place myself where it seems best all round for that particular stretch of road.
On a 2 mile stretch of road I ride often, I use various lane positions, according to lane width, traffic, my speed, sightlines, and whatever other factors may arise. As such, I'll typically change position 5 or more times in those two miles.
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Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
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WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
12-14-17, 09:20 AM
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Lane position is another example of how everything is becoming polarized in our society. Yes, there is good reason to help people gain confidence and realize that not only do they have the right to move out from the fog line and own the lane, but it can also be safer.
However, everything is situational, and simply having rights doesn't mean we need to exercise them full time. I look at lane position more from a tactical viewpoint, and place myself where it seems best all round for that particular stretch of road.
On a 2 mile stretch of road I ride often, I use various lane positions, according to lane width, traffic, my speed, sightlines, and whatever other factors may arise. As such, I'll typically change position 5 or more times in those two miles.
However, everything is situational, and simply having rights doesn't mean we need to exercise them full time. I look at lane position more from a tactical viewpoint, and place myself where it seems best all round for that particular stretch of road.
On a 2 mile stretch of road I ride often, I use various lane positions, according to lane width, traffic, my speed, sightlines, and whatever other factors may arise. As such, I'll typically change position 5 or more times in those two miles.
12-14-17, 09:41 AM
#15
Senior Member
It looks like you want to continue your spat with the OP. Maybe this time instead of closing the thread the moderators will deal with the posters who are creating the problems. This is an advocacy forum and the OP is a strong advocate for a school of thought that does indeed differ from strict vehicular cycling based on my limited exposure to it.
If having one thread, or one sticky or one subforum would limit the "advocacy" to that area I would be all for it. I thought that was the idea behind the VC subforum which is why I suggest it go there so that the rest of the threads can be treated as a forum for discussion by individuals expressing individual positions.
FWIW: My position on lane position is to do whatever I feel is safe and courteous for all users, Drivers and Cyclists. I belong to both user groups and believe the majority of my fellows are intelligent and decent and that I am just one of many users on the road; neither subjugated nor elevated in status. I have developed a flexible approach over many years of travel that I feel is both relatively safe and friendly. Taking a lane is occasionally a tool (one of many I possess the skill for) to be used, but not a philosophy to be inflicted. Certainly not a philosophy that uses such emotionally charged wording like "death zone" or that suggests people who do not agree have a "bicycle inferiority complex".
Last edited by Happy Feet; 12-14-17 at 09:49 AM.
12-14-17, 10:29 AM
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I suspect that the problem with the OPs proposal is that it a bit of a Trojan Horse, claiming to propose a place for dialog re lane position, but in fact supporting a monologue wherein one concept is deemed right, and all others wrong.
A forum is about dialog where different facts and opinions are brought forth so that folks can form their own opinions. The place to promote a single idea isn't here, but in a blog or other similar venue.
A forum is about dialog where different facts and opinions are brought forth so that folks can form their own opinions. The place to promote a single idea isn't here, but in a blog or other similar venue.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
12-14-17, 10:54 AM
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lane position is another example of how everything is becoming polarized in our society. Yes, there is good reason to help people gain confidence and realize that not only do they have the right to move out from the fog line and own the lane, but it can also be safer.
However, everything is situational, and simply having rights doesn't mean we need to exercise them full time. I look at lane position more from a tactical viewpoint, and place myself where it seems best all round for that particular stretch of road.
On a 2 mile stretch of road i ride often, i use various lane positions, according to lane width, traffic, my speed, sightlines, and whatever other factors may arise. As such, i'll typically change position 5 or more times in those two miles.
However, everything is situational, and simply having rights doesn't mean we need to exercise them full time. I look at lane position more from a tactical viewpoint, and place myself where it seems best all round for that particular stretch of road.
On a 2 mile stretch of road i ride often, i use various lane positions, according to lane width, traffic, my speed, sightlines, and whatever other factors may arise. As such, i'll typically change position 5 or more times in those two miles.
12-14-17, 10:59 AM
#18
Senior Member
I suspect that the problem with the OPs proposal is that it a bit of a Trojan Horse, claiming to propose a place for dialog re lane position, but in fact supporting a monologue wherein one concept is deemed right, and all others wrong.
A forum is about dialog where different facts and opinions are brought forth so that folks can form their own opinions. The place to promote a single idea isn't here, but in a blog or other similar venue.
A forum is about dialog where different facts and opinions are brought forth so that folks can form their own opinions. The place to promote a single idea isn't here, but in a blog or other similar venue.
12-14-17, 11:00 AM
#19
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Not all that different than the OP. He does not advocate taking and holding the lane all the time and being a jerk.
12-14-17, 11:01 AM
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Actually, the spat in the last thread was a continuation of problems in another thread before that in which I described moderate approaches quite similar to FBNY and WNCG but was argued against on and on because the "advocate" had to prove my approach was wrong. And so it will go in the next thread and the next until he manages to get everyone to agree with his idea or he begins to focus his advocacy in one area. It may seem I am arguing against his opinion but in fact, it is his approach.
If having one thread, or one sticky or one subforum would limit the "advocacy" to that area I would be all for it. I thought that was the idea behind the VC subforum which is why I suggest it go there so that the rest of the threads can be treated as a forum for discussion by individuals expressing individual positions.
FWIW: My position on lane position is to do whatever I feel is safe and courteous for all users, Drivers and Cyclists. I belong to both user groups and believe the majority of my fellows are intelligent and decent and that I am just one of many users on the road; neither subjugated nor elevated in status. I have developed a flexible approach over many years of travel that I feel is both relatively safe and friendly. Taking a lane is occasionally a tool (one of many I possess the skill for) to be used, but not a philosophy to be inflicted. Certainly not a philosophy that uses such emotionally charged wording like "death zone" or that suggests people who do not agree have a "bicycle inferiority complex".
If having one thread, or one sticky or one subforum would limit the "advocacy" to that area I would be all for it. I thought that was the idea behind the VC subforum which is why I suggest it go there so that the rest of the threads can be treated as a forum for discussion by individuals expressing individual positions.
FWIW: My position on lane position is to do whatever I feel is safe and courteous for all users, Drivers and Cyclists. I belong to both user groups and believe the majority of my fellows are intelligent and decent and that I am just one of many users on the road; neither subjugated nor elevated in status. I have developed a flexible approach over many years of travel that I feel is both relatively safe and friendly. Taking a lane is occasionally a tool (one of many I possess the skill for) to be used, but not a philosophy to be inflicted. Certainly not a philosophy that uses such emotionally charged wording like "death zone" or that suggests people who do not agree have a "bicycle inferiority complex".
Last edited by Ninety5rpm; 12-14-17 at 11:26 AM.
12-14-17, 01:12 PM
#22
Senior Member
As FBinNY pointed out, this is just another subject that has become polarized. Too bad, seems every segment and sub-segment of our society has decided we identify and define ourselves by our differences, which only serves to further separate, rather than what we have in common...which tends to draw us together and works for the common good of the whole.
But I guess that's another discussion and not pertinent to this thread.
12-14-17, 01:23 PM
#23
Senior Member
Actually, the spat in the last thread was a continuation of problems in another thread before that in which I described moderate approaches quite similar to FBNY and WNCG but was argued against on and on because the "advocate" had to prove my approach was wrong. And so it will go in the next thread and the next until he manages to get everyone to agree with his idea or he begins to focus his advocacy in one area. It may seem I am arguing against his opinion but in fact, it is his approach.
If having one thread, or one sticky or one subforum would limit the "advocacy" to that area I would be all for it. I thought that was the idea behind the VC subforum which is why I suggest it go there so that the rest of the threads can be treated as a forum for discussion by individuals expressing individual positions.
FWIW: My position on lane position is to do whatever I feel is safe and courteous for all users, Drivers and Cyclists. I belong to both user groups and believe the majority of my fellows are intelligent and decent and that I am just one of many users on the road; neither subjugated nor elevated in status. I have developed a flexible approach over many years of travel that I feel is both relatively safe and friendly. Taking a lane is occasionally a tool (one of many I possess the skill for) to be used, but not a philosophy to be inflicted. Certainly not a philosophy that uses such emotionally charged wording like "death zone" or that suggests people who do not agree have a "bicycle inferiority complex".
If having one thread, or one sticky or one subforum would limit the "advocacy" to that area I would be all for it. I thought that was the idea behind the VC subforum which is why I suggest it go there so that the rest of the threads can be treated as a forum for discussion by individuals expressing individual positions.
FWIW: My position on lane position is to do whatever I feel is safe and courteous for all users, Drivers and Cyclists. I belong to both user groups and believe the majority of my fellows are intelligent and decent and that I am just one of many users on the road; neither subjugated nor elevated in status. I have developed a flexible approach over many years of travel that I feel is both relatively safe and friendly. Taking a lane is occasionally a tool (one of many I possess the skill for) to be used, but not a philosophy to be inflicted. Certainly not a philosophy that uses such emotionally charged wording like "death zone" or that suggests people who do not agree have a "bicycle inferiority complex".
I am curious about how much the OP actually rides, and the area where the riding takes place.
12-14-17, 03:26 PM
#24
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Why take the lane? It is the best way to communicate to drivers that the lane is too narrow to share side-by-side, and they need to use another lane to pass. So many drivers can't judge for themselves, and if you move to the curb, it communicates that you are trying to make room for them to get by, so they try. If you ride down the middle of a narrow lane, you communicate that they must find another lane to pass. So simple. I wish this were covered in driver training in every jurisdiction.
I generally take the lane on all narrow roads and only move over if there is someone waiting behind me. I use a helmet-mounted mirror that makes it easy. It takes some experience, though, to recognize a wide lane from a narrow lane.
One caution: taking the lane (i.e., controlling the lane) only works when the difference in speed between the cars and the cyclist is low (20 mph/30 kmh or less), IMO. When speeds are higher, drivers may not have enough time to react to a cyclist in front of them, especially if the car in front just pulled out to pass and especially if their attention is divided/distracted.
I generally take the lane on all narrow roads and only move over if there is someone waiting behind me. I use a helmet-mounted mirror that makes it easy. It takes some experience, though, to recognize a wide lane from a narrow lane.
One caution: taking the lane (i.e., controlling the lane) only works when the difference in speed between the cars and the cyclist is low (20 mph/30 kmh or less), IMO. When speeds are higher, drivers may not have enough time to react to a cyclist in front of them, especially if the car in front just pulled out to pass and especially if their attention is divided/distracted.
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"Chim-chiminey, chim-chiminey, chim-chim cheroo"
"Chim-chiminey, chim-chiminey, chim-chim cheroo"
12-14-17, 03:59 PM
#25
Senior Member
"Take the Lane", huh? You going to go to elementary schools and junior highs and teach this to kids? I think you guys who claim to "take the lane" are a bluff. Let's see some videos of you actually doing it in traffic and getting some commentary from motorists afterward.
Not sure why I have offended you so much, but it certainly wasn't my intent.
