Obeast

New Alivio and Tiagra are just amazing to look at. For such a cheap price and they perform flawlessly. Has cycling technology progressed or matured to the point that manufacturers cannot make crap quality parts for the low end lines in their hierarchy like they did in the past? Like they don´t save any money doing so. Also, I notice very little difference going from 105 to Dura Ace and SLX to XTR...

Lazyass

I've had Dura Ace, Record, ect. My modern bike has Ultegra 6700. I had a '15 Specialized Diverge with Claris. It was outstanding and if it was the only group I was ever able to have I would have been fine with it. It's good enough for probably 95% of riders. Light enough, peforms flawlessly and replacement components are dirt cheap. The new Claris R2000 is really sweet.

veganbikes

Most lower end stuff is still going to be crap at least for Shimano. Tourney doesn't really get better it just updates the look of the crap. First it came in brown and now it is gone green and next it might be yellow but crap is crap.

Certainly the mid level stuff seems to have some improvement especially in the looks department. I think if they got rid of Tourney, Claris and Altus for sure the line up at the low end would certainly look a lot better and perform a lot better as well. Make fewer gruppos and focus more time on each one making them better and trying to lower some prices but not quality.

Obeast

I never buy retail but I don´t see how Sram force shifters can cost more than full Tiagra groupsets on ebay. I guess it is the convergence of the Ikea effect and technology that pushes most of us to work on our bikes. Tons of tutorials on youtube, riddit and forum like this so it´s not like it´s a trade secret anymore on how to repair stuff. I just watched a video that taught me how to build wheels...

Lazyass

Can you elaborate with specifics?

tyrion

I was just at CostCo and they had a $170 bike. I wouldn't call it "OK quality" - lots of stamped sheet metal. The RD said "Shimano" but I couldn't see a model name. (I've had Sora level bikes that were just fine - this $170 bike looked way below Sora level.)

tyrion

That $170 bike I mentioned above had a RD hanger that looked like 1/16" sheet metal.

HTupolev

I'm not sure that's really much different than the distant past. The core mechanical design in a SunTour Cyclone rear derailleur isn't much different than a cheapo SunTour Honor of the same period; the former is just much lighter and less chunky and generally better-constructed.
The Cyclone was also more likely to be paired with ratcheting shifters for a satisfying click and light-action feel, compared with the simpler friction shifters that typically came with the lower-end stuff.

And that's mostly how things are today. When you go up component tiers, you're buying rear cogs and build quality. And like the old days, the big difference to shifting is in how good the shifter feels.

The actual derailing action is pretty similar at all levels because it works near perfect even on the bottom-end stuff: there just isn't much room for improvement. In terms of the mechanical requirements, Shimano had modern indexed shifting more or less figured out by the end of the 1980s. And most of those requirements can be implemented for pretty cheap.

A Tourney drivetrain looks chunky, weighs a lot, has a plasticky-feeling shifter, and likely has a shorter lifespan than the higher-end stuff. But yeah, when it's dialed in, it'll operate fine.

Lazyass

What does the hanger have to do with the group? The OP wasn't asking about bikes.

rico_mack

I normally buy one rung down from the top tier stuff, I.e xt, ultegra, force, etc. mostly because I can’t afford the price of top tier stuff. I have on occasion used 3rd tier stuff and found them out of the box to be very good and probably comparable to the 2nd tier stuff. But what I’ve noticed is the 3rd performance deteriorated quicker than the second tier items. Perhaps the same can be said when comparing 2nd tier with the top tier item. But I have no real experience with that.

Since performance longevity of components is important to me therefore I buy 2nd tier components. My $0.02 worth.

Aubergine 

I suspect the hanger was attached to the derailleur itself, to be bolted on to the frame.

HerrKaLeun

it may be helpful toe ht OP and the rest of us to clarify what "crap" means.
I'd say both Shimano and SRAM will be good enough quality to last and work as intended for a long time. What you get more with more $ is more gears (requiring more precision in design and manufacturing) and les weight. With even less weight, you may get less durability at a given number of speeds.

I'd say pick a drivetrain by the number of gears you want and the ratios available. then pick the lowest set in that speed-range. If you get the cheapest of each manufacturer's 11-speed groupsets, you still get excellent shifting quality, just a bit more weight (and with that possibly more durability?) than the most expensive 11-speed. but either option will shift fine.

Lazyass

Tourney is Shimano's lowest end model. The hanger is not attached to the derailleur. Looks kind of cheap but I don't see any sheet metal.



This is their second from the lowest. It's basically what 105/Tiagra, ect was a few years ago. You would probably never wear it out. It's good enough for most people on this web site.



This is the new Claris R2000. You can't tell me that looks cheapo. You can buy one for twenty bucks.

cyccommute 

For Shimano, I would say yes. And it depends on what part you are talking about. Shimano's front derailers, for example, are much better in the lower classes for both mountain and road. Ultegra front derailers are more difficult to set up and less forgiving of wider range drivetrains than the Tiagra, Sora and even Claris.

The very worst front derailer ever made is the XTR carbon e-type mount. The carbon is far too flexible for the job and doesn't shift well at all. Sometimes it's flexible enough that it won't even shift at all since the mount just flexes and the derailer doesn't move.

dedhed

They make stuff lower than tourney. Just not stuff we'd be thinking about.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...f_rd_i=3494361

veganbikes

Lighter and smoother shifting is part of it for SRAM Force. Also those might be used or counterfeit or just someone who bought a ton of them like an OEM type of deal.

Of course one can work on their stuff as well and keep it going. You don't always have to buy the latest and greatest but it can be quite nice.

Cheaper parts made from stamped metals or cheap plastic and other materials. The shifting isn't smooth and crisp but generally clunky and slow. Parts are going to be heavier but not stronger. In some cases low quality bearing seals and bearings or just cheaper bushings instead. Poor cable retention...the list could go on for a while but hopefully you get the point.

GrainBrain

Apparently SRAM does a good job of protecting their supply chain against this.

Inside SRAM, Chicago's thriving high-tech bicycle-components company - Business Insider

Retro Grouch 

How thin can you slice the baloney?

Shimano, for example, makes so many different lines of components that I can't keep track of them all. Without a doubt the high end ones work a bit more crisply than the cheap ones. The question is how many groups do you have to move up or down before you can discern a noticeable difference? The good stuff also tends to be a little lighter in weight and definitely looks better. Honestly, there's a prestige factor at work here too.

Price, on the other hand goes up exponentially as you move up the food chain.

I think that selecting components is more a function of your price gag point than quality or performance.

rydabent

Probably most stuff works ok. It is the geometry that makes RD work right. So---no matter what the RD is made of, if it put the jockey wheel under the right gear it is going to shift.

Troul 

Slop outta box
Deflection reflexes
Drag & Lag
Automatic indecisive gearing selecting
One time use hardware

that is what meets the elcheapo criteria & it will always exist in all pricings / brands.

I wouldnt say tech has defaulted to positive progression. It just got more creative.

Gresp15C

I have no experience with high-end components.

My first derailleur bike was a 70s Schwinn Varsity 2x5. My newest is a 1x9 with Shimano Acera. Both would qualify as entry level. The difference in shifting is night and day. I've also maintained a family fleet of entry level bikes.

I would trust entry level components from a reputable brand to function well and be reliable for years. Is there possible room for improvement? I'd like to see the use of materials and coatings that don't rust during the winter, though my Acera derailleur held up remarkably well after I applied a greasy coating to it before the beginning of road salt season.

cyccommute 

You have to go very deep into the cheap parts to see this kind of performance. I’m mean deep! Below Claris. Even Tourney on BSOs from Helmart are serviceable and have none of the attributes you list above. Their shifters are positive. They can be adjusted so that shifting is crisp and remains that way. And I see a lot of them on BSOs at my local co-op that are incredibly durable. No, it’s not great stuff but it’s not nearly as junky as cheap parts from the 80s and 90s was.

Lazyass

What groups would those be and which of those have you owned? With the OP mentioning Tiagra and Alvio, which are nice groups, I don't think he was referring to stuff on Walmart bikes.

Troul 

What is likely the case is that the "cheap" experiences that fail fast could just be NOS items reboxed and labeled. I've ordered online what was said to be one model, but received either the leftovers (returned it) or the revised one (tried it & kept it usually) that was relisted under the old parts info. I've also walked into lbs & found on display pretty old stuff that the store likely dusted off often. If it were not for me looking for something right near it, I'd have never picked up on it, googled searched it, & found it to be x years old.

wphamilton

If you don't mind 8 speed and a small amount of extra weight, absolutely Claris is at least "OK quality". Certainly way beyond "crap" and the general criticisms of sloppy shifting etc do not apply. It's doubtful that there is any drop in durability either.

There's not much wrong with Tourney either. When you get to levels of Shimano below that, the unnamed groups that they sell mostly for inexpensive mass produced bikes, we're better off avoiding. Although those also seem to work fairly well, I think they wear out quickly and they can be a pain to adjust and keep adjusted. Honestly I think that last part is the main reason why bike shop mechanics seem to despise them.