DiTBho

This summer I completely broke my wheels and am in the process of building new ones.

• hubs = Campagnolo C-record/8sp
• rims = Archetype Hson
• spokes = what to mount? ... mumble

My usage profile is:

• classic 90s bicycle, for regular training, ~40-50Km per day
• for occasional long trips max 160-180 km on weekends
• asphalted roads, never dirt roads or anything else
• slight road stress
• few climbs, mostly flat, so I'm not very interested in the "weight" issue
• I would like to prefer comfort over performance (medium profile = greater inertia and stability)
• average speed 32km/h, maximum speed 50km/h
• many curved trajectories (that's why I prefer c-record with cone and ball hubs, rather than sealed bearings)
• possible routes with cross wind (that's why not high profile, but medium profile rims)
• my weight is around 67kg

I was thinking about two types of spokes (in order of preference)... but I haven't decided anything yet and I might even change the type

• Sapim Race
• Sapim Laser

What do you think about?

mpetry912 

DT or Sapim, 2.0 / 1.8 butted. I recommend 3 cross rear, 2 cross front

"many curved trajectories" ? I'm curious. please explain how that is a decision criteria for spokes ? or bikes ?

/markp

maddog34

pretty sure that means he goes around corners a lot.... on flat ground....and on pavement... with "low road stress."

or he's mounting JATO Rockets to his bike... that would certainly reduce road stresses... until the bike lands again..which would also possibly break wheels.

nice pic, btw.

DiTBho

It's more a decison for the hubs, I see the difference with ones with cones and balls (80s and mid 90s), versus ones with sealed bearings (Campagnolo Chorus > 1997). On curved trajectories those with cones and balls are more efficient with less friction.

DiTBho

Bingo! I go around half of the lake, over and over again, for training. In practice I do the same closed route, I start from A, I go around, and I return to A, the same curves, a lot of bend, all on the flat.

The long trips I take on weekends (and the weather forecast says that the weather conditions will be ok and stable for the next 10 hours) are practically all straight, with few curves. Practically the opposite.

DiTBho

Which models by Sapim?
The Race ones are 2.0mm butted.
What do you think about them?

I will probably also assemble a third wheel, with a 900g internal gear hub on a Archetype Hson rim: will the Sapin Race be fine in this case too?

maddog34

Get the Sapim Race spokes... the Lasers are too thin, and also expensive. They can twist during installation too.

How did your wheels "break"? Did the rims wear out? Spokes snapping? Hubs failed?

personally, i'd advise that you do more basic bicycle maintenance, and less electric shifter discussing.

DiTBho

I was returning home from a long trip, on the way back I found a bridge closed for maintenance, I was in an area I don't know, it was very late and it was starting to get dark, so I took a dimly lit road as the GPS was suggesting it as "shortcut alternative", and I hit a 10cm deep hole in at around 40km/h.

• Front wheel: rim bent and ovalized, inner tube exploded
• Rear wheel: rim bent
• No damage to hubs, no broken spokes, but two spokes on both wheels are bent.

I came back pushing the bike for 30km.

I dismantled everything, I could recover the Campagnolo Mirage hubs, but I preferred to take two C-Records/8sp hub, which I found NOS but for cheap by pure luck.

mpetry912 

really ? ya think ? when you are leaning into a turn there is minimal sideload on the bearings. The apparent "downward" force in a turn is the vector sum of gravity and centripetal force imposed by going around the corner. See diagram below. The force is normal to the frame, which is why you lean into a corner. This effect is discussed at length in "Bicycling Science" by Frank Whitt and David Gordon Wilson. It's like a coordinated turn in an airplane.

Also, sorry to say, Campagnolo Record and Chorus hubs of the 1997 vintage are cone and cup bearings, not sealed. I've had mine apart to install ceramic bearings. See pic #2

going back to your original question, the Sapin Race or Laser spokes will be fine, or DT Competition. Use the 14g (2.0 / 1.8)

/markp

DiTBho

so what is the advantage of having cone and ball hubs?

umm, "> 1997" should mean { 1998, 1999, ... }

• Chorus HB-00CH (1997) cone and cup
• Chorus HB-20CH (1998) sealed bearings

Kontact

DT are more reliable than Sapim. Pillar are reliable and cheaper than either.

mpetry912 

[QUOTE=DiTBho;23024076]so what is the advantage of having cone and ball hubs?

this !

DiTBho

Umm, I was thinking about how these two hub tecnologies do support of loads not perpendicular to the ground as the rotation elements inside the hubs must support different types of loads.

• There are those perpendicular to the ground, which act when the wheel is perfectly straight.
• There are those which develop different angles with the ground, when turning or steering; the rotation elements oppose a force opposite to that acting on the hub, in order to cancel it, and it is precisely this type of reaction that differentiates the work of the hubs

I do think that, because

• When the wheel is straight, the direction of the resisting force has the same inclination, therefore 90° with respect to the ground, whether the rotation element is a sealed bearing or spheres.
• When the force is not perpendicular to the ground, the resistant direction of the industrial bearings remains perpendicular while that of the spheres follows the same inclination as the acting force. The inclined force will act differently on an industrial bearing, which will offer less resistance, compared to cone and spheres, which therefore guarantee greater resistance to efforts with the wheel inclined with respect to the ground, reducing friction, overheating and wear. of the materials, as well as allowing better smoothness of the hub in these situations.

DiTBho

umm, as bonus:

• can open, clean, re-grease
• can be regulated
• (personally I do find) easier to open

FBinNY 

I don't do brands, so am speaking purely about function.

First, use only double butted spokes, because there's no logical reason not to.

As to gauges, go light for the front, either 1.8/1.6 DB or 2.0/1.6 DB. 2x or 3x doesn't matter. I know you're not focused on weight, but there's no reason to build heavier than necessary.

For the rear, 3x 2.0/1.6 DB on the right, and 3x 2.0/1.6 DB on the left. Using thinner spokes on the left (slacker) side makes it easier to properly tension a dished rear wheel without going too high on the right side.

Again, it's not about weight, but finding the best choice for the application.

One hidden beauty in my suggestion is that you're still buying only 2 different spokes if you build the front 3x, because frilont and left rear will be the same.

DiTBho

Great! I need alternatives! Very nice to know!
Which DT' or Pillar' models do you suggest for my profile?
(so I can check datasheets)

FBinNY 

You have the cart before the horse. Major brand quality differences tend to be fairly small, and brand preferences are all over the board. For every positive endorsement, there'll be some knocks from others. This is why I don't do brand endorsements other than saying to stick with well known brands.

In any case, start by deciding on the type and gauges you prefer, then see who makes them.

It's also OK to mix brands, but not on the same flange, ie. DT for front and left, and Sapim for right rear. Though I prefer not to (less to explain), it's sometimes necessary based on availability.

Kontact

I'm going to second what you've already been told - 2.0/1.8 butted spokes. If you build correctly, 2.0 butts are perfectly strong, 1.8 centers will resist twisting better than 1.5 centers, the butted spoke will be more elastic and therefore tougher than straight gauge and aero spokes don't make any sense for anything other than a truly aerodynamic wheel/tire combination.

Sapim has had several documented periods of quality issues leading to breakages. Given the price, I see no reason not to get one of the common alternatives that have no such reputation.

And if you run into some old stock of Wheelsmith 2.0/1.7 butted - those are good, too.

Use regular brass nipples with either Triflow, or Triflow and Spokeprep. (Or boiled linseed, if you must.)

maddog34

"or DT Competition".. TWO wheel builders in Portland have quit carrying DT spokes... "too many problems" with the double butted ones.. "we don't stock DT any longer" was all the second shop said... i recently went shopping for more spokes... i came home with Sapim Race and Sapim Straight Gauge spokes.. i learned a long time ago to buy in bulk... 100 in a box, and up... i buy nipples 1000 at a time.

Russ Roth

I have a preference for the wheelsmith butted when I can find them but prices seem to be going up, the longer taper to the butting is supposed to be better. Last two builds this year were sapim race since they were easily available, don't have any complaints about them, they seem to work just fine. Also never had an issue with DT, based on build I couldn't care if it was DT or Sapim, sapim had the same, shorter butting length but have it closer to the threads and elbow so maybe an insignificant amount lighter.

79pmooney

I weigh barely more than the OP and have been using DT Revolutions for all but the DS rear (or the Wheelsmith or Sapim equivalents) in both round and bladed with zero issues and have for nearly forever. OK, so there's twist. Deal with it when you build. (Bladed spokes make the twist easy to see.) Maybe it takes a few more minutes. But for wheels that go on for years and thousands of miles, well worth the nicer ride. (I'm not saying this for everybody, but us sub 155 pounders will do just fine.)

esasjl

I've used Lasers (28, 3x) and been very happy with them. To finesse the rear wheel dependent on dish make the spoke cross-sectional area proportional to tension so that spokes all stretch the same amount. Sapim have Laser (1.5 mm), D-Light (1.65 mm) and Race (1.8 mm) all with 2.0 mm butts; DS/NDS ratios D-Light/Laser 82%, Race/D-Light 84%, Race/Laser 69%. Monitor wind-up when tightening by marking the butt above the nipple with a Sharpie.

Kontact

I like and use Revolutions, but you should have a reason to use super light spokes. If the build isn't going to be super light itself, why put yourself through the chore of building with them and dealing with wind up?

icemilkcoffee 

An off centered rim would do more to strengthen the rear wheel than this or that choice of spokes

Kontact

Wheel strength and spoke longevity aren't really the same thing.