caloso

I just acquired a vintage Italian frame, a late 80s Caldaro. There's no question that I'll be outfitting it with Italian components. I've already got a nice Ambrosio stem and a Selle Italia saddle. The gruppo will be Campagnolo, of course.

Since the rear spacing is 130mm, I was thinking of going with a new Chorus group, rather than hunting down vintage-correct components bit by bit. My feeling is that a well constructed bike frame is endlessly updateable.

What say you? Will I offend the Classic & Vintage gods? Will Madonna di Ghisallo shed bitter tears for my apostasy?

merlinextraligh

Late 1980's Campy componets were bad. The first index shifting groups were the low watermark of the brand. I have a 1989 Paramount that was originally built up with Campagnolo Athena, allegedly the first Campy group to get index shifting right. It was terrible. IMHO, step back just slightly in time and put on NR, or put on a modern group, but skip the late 80's Campy index shifting.

lotek 

no you won't offend the C&V gods, the Madonna di Ghisallo will not shed bitter tears.
However had you said you were gonna put Ultegra on it then there would be some
serious sh'it you know rain, floods dogs and cats sleeping together, real old testament
wrath of god kind of stuff.

For me it's the frame, not the components you throw on it that matters.
if you're gonna ride it more with ergo, go for it.


to further what Merlin said, I agree that syncro and syncro2 are cr@p, however
you can run all of the late 80s groups with regular old friction shifting.
you can also run an 8 speed ergo with only brifters and Rear Derailleur and still
leave the rest period correct.
marty

caloso

Yeah, that's the thing. I've got a brand new Ultegra derailleur sitting in a bin on my workbench and as I went to unwrap it, the sky got really dark and there was thunder and lightning. So, I put it back in the bin.

jet sanchEz

I think it can look really nice. Here is a guy that got it right:

caloso

Yes! Now that's what I'm talking about!

miyata610

Indexed 10 speed DT shifters would be my choice, but I think that would limit you to Dura Ace.

Did Campy ever make 10 speed DT shifters?

cyclotoine

here is mine... The thomson seatpost goes on later this week, it will improve the asthetic I think.

oh and that isn't a kickstand, well actually it is just the arm of one with some innertube on it for the purpose of proping bikes for photographs.

John E

Since old frames tend to be better than old components, I have performed numerous guilt-free upgrades and updates over the years. My current project bike is a 1960 Capo, for which I have all of the original parts except the chainrings, for which I have period-correct and brand-correct NOS replacements which fit my lower gearing needs better than the originals (49-45 versus 52-48). I am also rebuilding the wheels because the original zinc-plated spokes looked like cr@p, while debating clinchers versus tubulars.

When finished, I'll have one Capo with the original cottered steel crankset, Campagnolo Gran Sport derailleurs, Campagnolo Record high-flange hubset, and (what's left of) the original paint, decal, and chrome job, and another with aluminum cranks, 1980s Campagnolo derailleurs and Campagnolo seatpost, and CyclArt repaint, but the original Weinmann Vainqueur 999 brakes and Campagnolo gear levers.

nine

this is exactly what i would like to do for my next bike project. any advice on the best way to accomplish this? what type of vintage frames to look out for that would accommodate index shifters and the rest of the modern stuff? thanks - a

stronglight

Personally, I think you can generally get great buys on some very classy, top quality, steel bikes, which will update with a real minimum of tinkering, if you target late 1980s era. ~ STI didn't come out until 1991, and 130mm spacing for 8-spd (same as 9&10-spd) rear hubs was new for 1989, but otherwise, much of what we're accustomed to now, had already worked it's way into bike technology.

But... if you want to go with something older:

I've "Hot-Rodded" even a 1960s Peugeot PX-10 to 130mm rear spacing for current 9/10spd hubs and tapped out the previously un-threaded (French style) rear derailleur hanger to accept any standard modern 10 x 1mm derailleur bolt. So, it now runs on an all new drivetrain... EXCEPT for the crankset. It still has old Stronglight cranks - just because I'm funny about springing for fitting that French threaded shell with a Phil Woods BB simply so I can use a more modern crankset - which isn't really needed, at all.

But, I think the real gems are British bikes. They already are tapped to the same threadings we still use for the BB & headset and (unlike French bikes) use a 22.2 quill stem - for which you can always get an adapter post to which you can even clamp a threadless stem (if you absolutely MUST). Top-end 1970s Raleighs (International & Professional for example), usually even had 27.2mm seatposts.

Older Schwinn Paramounts are also easily updated.

And, Japanese bikes are a nice choice, too. Just one thing to watch out for on them would be use of JIS (Japanese Industry Standard) sizing on fork crowns & head tubes and possibly uncommon seatpost diameters.

Older ('70s, etc.) bikes commonly had brazed-on rear derailleur cable stops or guides routing cables ABOVE the chainstay. But, you can get around this with a clamp-on chain stay stop to guide the cable below... and, you can also easily drill and tap a single bolt hole beneath your BB shell to attach a modern Campy/Shimano derailleur cable guide under there. A clamp-on Campy down tube shifter band, with the levers removed, will be fine for attaching cable guides/adjusters for STI/ERGO cables. I know, this all sounds like a bit of a bother, but I think that if you don't re-orient your cable routing, you may have a bit of a mess criss-crossing over the STI and especially ERGO derailleur cables after they exit your handle bars... [BUT, I may be completely wrong about this].

Also, check out the distance from the brake mounting holes on the frameset to the rims. Chances are, you'll want to use modern dual pivot brakes, too. Some much older bikes may have a very long caliper reach which might be a pain to accomodate with even something like Shimano's longer reach BR-R600 calipers. And (again, on pre-80s bikes), I expect you'll have to drill out the frameset for recessed brake mounting... but it's generally really simple to drill out a hole from 6mm to 8mm, anyway.

Maybe this is a stupid generality to make, but I think that really the higher the quality of a vintage bike, the more likely it was to have gotten the newer "stylings" (like recessed, shorter reach brake calipers) which gradually trickled down to most other models, later.

Dave Moulton

This is one of the first Fuso frames I built in 1984. It belongs to its original owner who did not want to part with it so he restored it with a new paint job and refitted it with new CF components.

caloso

As it turned out, the rear hub spacing was not 130mm but 126. A huge problem for an aluminum or CF frame, but a minor incovenience for steel. I took the Caldaro to Steve Rex's shop, as one of the standard services he offers is "cold setting" steel frames (a fancy word for gently bending the frame into a wider spacing). I'm also having him handbuild some classic wheels (silver Open Pros on Chorus hubs). I can't wait.

bikingshearer 

Stronglight is absolutely correct on this one. I bought a 1967 Paramount P-15 frame, fork and headset on eBay. Modern rear derailleur and BB (English thread, of course) screw right into place with zero hassles. 27.2 seatpost size, so finding a fit is easy. If you get one with rack mounts on the drop-outs, they are the same threading as the ones used today.

There is one possible surprise, though - if you get a touring Paramount frame, double check the brake reach. I found out the hard way that current-day "long reach" brakes - what used to be "standard reach," down to about 58mm or so - don't reach far enough. The lovely NOS set of Suntour Superbes I had reached to the middle of the tire sidewall on the back - not exactly what the doctor ordered. (The front is not a problem.) I solved the problem with some modern Dia-Compe center pulls from Rivendell. (If you do this, swap the pads for Kool Stops or Matthausers - the original pads are inadequate for the task.)

But wait, an even better solution is at hand: Riv is about to introduce honest-to-God long reach - truly, serious, 70mm or thereabouts long reach - double pivot sidepulls. I just saw (as in this past Saturday) a prototype mounted on a prototype frame, and it looks good. It'll be a house brand (I don't remember the name) and it will be made by Tektro just for Riv. The guys at Rivendell said they wil be available in a week or so. I think they said the price will be around $80 for a set of calipers, but don't hold me to that. Finally, serious stopping power and a good fit on my frame.

stronglight

Great to hear the news about the new Rivendell dual pivot calipers, Bikingshearer! ~~ I'm both poor and cheap, so I resist spending a lot on "modern" components, BUT, Rivendell is a very small operation without the power of massive purchasing to keep their prices lower. So, I never really mind supporting their enterprises, and even paying a bit more than I might find discounted at Nashbar, etc. -- Who else would bother to fight for the wonderful yet un-trendy fabrications we all love to have available for our projects. And, Tektro makes some truly beautifully finished products.

I have an old 1981 Weinmann catalog which shows some of their now long gone sidepulls, some of which had an insanely long reach but were all quite basic single pivot variations on the same design as the 500, and lacked even a quick release feature.

[ FYI: Weinmann Model #810 = 61-79 mm • #890 = 69-87 mm • #1020 = 74.5-92.5 mm • #1080 = 84.5-108 mm (Wow! that's over 4 inches!) ]

Ditto on the Paramount P-15 caliper reach issue. I have a 1971, and even with a drop-bolt and 27" rims, I had to use Weinmann 750 centerpulls (same as Dia-Compe) rather than early Campy brakes. Weinmanns were the original factory spec. brakes for the model, anyway. Mathauser pads do make a great difference, but don't expect the same "Power Brakes" feel as modern dual pivot calipers (even though center-pulls were in fact the original concept behind dual-pivot braking power).

I hope the new Rivendell brakes will be olde-style bolt-ons - I do hate having to drill out fine old framesets just to accomodate recessed mounting bolts.

n4zou

I picked up a Suteki bicycle from one of the local thrift stores for $5 and shifted almost everything from a TREK touring bike that had frame damage over to the vintage Suteki. The only items I did not change out were the Shimano Tourney center pull brakes. These brakes are impressive! Double pivot and wide range reach. The Suteki came with 27 inch wheels but 700c went right on with no brake reach problems and I swear there as good as V brakes! The rear spacing was 130 mm as well. One hint about equine, Horses and mules will attack you on sight! They think you’re a big cat jumping at them when you're on a road bike going any speed at all. If you see equine on the road or a bike path, emergency stop the bike, get off, throw the bike to the ground, and run away as fast as you can! I survived a mule attack with a few broken ribs but my TREK did not. What's a Suteki? Good question that can be answered here.
https://www.touringonbikes.us/suteki.htm

xB_Nutt

Any more word on these? I don't see them listed on the Rivendell site yet. I am very interested.

Dogbait

R556

"What? Me Worry?"

"Sorry etc....."

Mike552

Those Ksyriums are WAY out of place IMHO. But, each to their own, I guess.

ViperZ

I think as long as you are having fun then do what needs to be done!

I was going to put new parts on to my Vintage frame, but now I'm caught in the allure of the old 85 C-Record Gruppo for my build, sure it shifted crappy in index mode, and sure the Delta brakes didn't stop worth a damn, however that's not what I'm after this time. I already have a bike for that purpose, I need something with all the idiosyncrasies of the olden days of my youth


BTW that frame looks like a great starting point

stronglight

-0¿0- Bravo!

I think it is good, and possibly even "important" to keep some bikes in their appropriate period components. It's often a tough call. And it's more than just a consideration of their "restored" monetary value. I have a couple of old road bikes which I did picked up as beautifully restored framesets. They are now built up as they might have been ridden back in their day.

I realize that if I had set them up with smooth and efficient modern components I would surely ride them more - which is always what I think should be done with ANY bike. However, there is nothing like reaching down beside a seat tube, to actuate a 1950s lever operated front changer, to truly remind me of just how far we have come to reach the current plateau of ergonomic, supremely smooth, mechanisms which we so easily tend to take for granted today.

When fighting with those Campy Synchro shifters to move your beefy chain over those un-profiled cogs... just enjoy the struggle!

Personally, I wish I had an old car that I had to get out and hand-crank just to start. Then I could truly appreciate gliding over the mountain passes in a fuel injected, climate controlled, surround-sound wrapped modern "environment" all the more.

ViperZ

That was funny!

Imagine riding one of those bikes with the 2 levers on the chain stays, one to loosen the Quick Release so you can use the other lever to derail the chain

stronglight

I have a friend in another state who built up a 1940s Bianchi racing bike equipped with those Campagnolo "Cambio Corsa" levers. (And, by the way, they required special very long dropouts with notches inside them to help keep the axle indexed parallel on each stay, so they were actually not "quite" so scarey as I always had thought). He assumed it would be an easily learned technique; he discovered it was definitely not instinctive to someone reverting back from modern derailleurs.

He still takes the bike out occasionally... to keep himself humble. He also invites other riders (typically Cat-2 racer friends) to try their skills... and to make them feel stupid and clumsy, as well.

I read somewhere that the famous Italian champion Gino Bartali was a master with those shifters, and could change gears so fast and smoothly he would not even break his pace.

Not for me, thanks! Sometimes when I'm waiting at a traffic light, I'm still impressed that I can simply step back onto my pedals and effortlessly start out riding again... without just falling over sideways like an awkward 3 year old trying to balance on his first two-wheeled bike.

Yeah, good to remember the past.. but also to appreciate one's own (sometimes extremely modest) accomplishments.

Cheers!

xB_Nutt

Thanks!! Looks like there are none available at either link, but now I have a part number and starting point.

Anybody get these yet? Reviews?

sykerocker 

One of the ways to truly appreciate modern technology is to live with an original or properly restored version of the its predecessor. I've been doing that for decades.

My first car (back in 1968) was a 1937 Buick Special - not a street rod, original. Back before 'American Graffiti', if you had an old car you restored it, rather than turning it into a Saturday night cruiser. Learned to drive a stick with it. Currently sitting in the garage is a 1969 Triumph Bonneville cafe racer - you should see the look on the squid's face on a Saturday afternoon once the Honda shop I work at closes, as I go through the starting ritual. You should see the look on their faces as I burn them through the first real tight turn on the streets behind the shop. Even further back is the 1930 Indian 101 Scout sitting next to it in the garage. That one is so different (if you ride motorcycles, you'd be able to figure out the brakes on this one, everything else is in the wrong place) that I only run it a couple times a year. I just can't clue up to it comfortably.

More on topic is the early 70's Gitane Tour de France that just joined the stable. 300 miles later I realize that while a very effective and smooth rear derailleur, my memories of the Simplex Criterium have definitely been colored by some rather rose-colored glasses. It's inability to climb the freewheel one cog at a time (it prefers two, then back down) has given me some moments. I'm toying with possibly doing a period correct, three-year-old-used-bike, upgrade and going to a set of Simplex LJ (sorry, I will not put Japanese components on a 70's French frame). Conversely, my 1964 Raleigh Gran Sport has me absolutely bowled over by the worthiness of the Campagnolo Gran Sport setup - I'll happily put them up against any non-indexed setup I've ever, or currently, ridden.

Ride the old stuff. Living with it makes you a better, and more appreciative, cyclist. And remember: Any schmuck with money can restore a top of the line old bicycle. He gets the snob value, and knows he'll get his money back because of collectibility. Real lovers of the old stuff show their devotion by restoring those $100-125.00 plain tube, bike boom models. Seen through the history of cycling, they're way more important, yet have a better chance of completely disappearing, if only through benign neglect.

Syke
Deranged Few M/C