Smallguy

I've just begun riding with a new club and I'm not sure what is the right thing to do when pulling into a hill

the preferred way to pace line is the lead rider is passed by the rest of the pack and then hops on the last riders wheels in the pack

rather than the lead rider pulling off and dropping back as the pack proceeds and grabbing the last wheel.. apparently this is the traditional way

the issue we were having was on the way back as people were getting tired (ended up down to a group of 3 and started as a group 8-10) the lead rider was working up to the hill then the pack was passing them and the rider was not able to grab the last wheel... this resulted in a few people being dropped some got back on but it certainly hurt when I was trying to get back on the last wheel. I ultimately made it but damn it hurt

so what should the pack be doing

1. take the pull from the lead rider in advance of the hill so they have some recovery time ?

2. soft pedal at the top so everyone gets back on then resume pacelines ?

3. do not take pulls on climbs and just sit in and vary your speed to the lead rider ?

4. it's not advertised a no drop ride so don't worry about it?

mwchandler21

If its not a race then re-form at the top of the hill.

gregf83 

In a given group there is normally a range of hill climbing ability. An experienced, bigger rider shouldn't be taking a hard (above threshold) pull before a hill on a competitive ride.

If you are trying to keep the group together and it's not a competitive ride it's best if the lighter hill climbers pull before the hill since they will have an easier time going up. And then regroup at the top.

merlinextraligh

If you're trying to keep the group together, the advancing rider in the line needs to keep the pace steady, and the rider pulling off needs to slightly lower his pace to drift to the back.

If the advancing rider is upping the pace to pass the guy who pulled off, you're going to start shelling people.

Realize that your pull is not over until you are safely hooked back on at the back. So pull off before you're shot, saving energy to hook back on.

If you know others in the group are going to ratchet the pace after your pull, you have three choices, One, make your pull shorter, and save more energy so you can match the acceleration, or Two, drive the pace at the front to the point, no one can ratchet it up on you, or Three, yell at them to quit jacking the paceline.

carpediemracing 

Most riders naturally increase their effort and power output on a climb. It's tricky because to go as fast as possible, you actually want to maintain a steady pace even uphill and maintain that effort/power on the downhills. Most riders do something like this: flat = 200 watts, hill = 400 watts, downhills = 100 watts. They'd go faster if they did a steady output everywhere (like 220 or 240 in the previous example).

It's hard to judge but you want to keep "effort" constant when climbing in a paceline. This isn't speed. With a heart rate monitor it's somewhat possible to pace yourself. If your heartrate is starting to go up, you ease. With a powermeter it's much easier. When riding with my gf-then-fiancee-then-wife, I'd hold a constant power. I'd up it 10-20 watts to see if she could handle it, but if she couldn't, I'd drop it down a bit. On hills I'd bump it up 10-50 watts since most riders naturally go harder on climbs, and she was okay with that. On downhills I'd wait for coasting. If she coasted, I went harder. If no coasting, I maintained pace. Wattages vary wildly on descents due to speed - 30 mph requires less power to push through than 45 mph.

If doing a paceline on a hill and you want to have a paceline at the top (rather than some people regrouping and others not), then the slowest climber should sit second wheel and a very good pace type rider should sit first wheel. The slowest climber can go as hard as possible, the pacer up front should maintain speed, easing as necessary.

Then, once you crest the climb, the pacer pulls off, the slow climber pulls off, and the paceline resumes.

The better climbers have to ease up. They can pull further/longer on the flats or, what really helps, into the wind, to expend that excess energy.

Since I'm often the slowest climber in a group, that's the best way for me to climb. Otherwise it's a real pain because everyone is scattered at the top of the hill.

cdr

Phantoj

Attack!

and regroup at the top

if it's a real hill.

brad06ag

Also, when pulling off on a paceline, you should only slow slightly so that there is not a hard acceleration at the back to latch on again. If you are having to accelerate hard to grab the back of the pack, then you slowed down way too much.

rm -rf

It sounds like the leader pulls "forever" until the second rider thinks the pace is too slow, or the leader is getting tired and slowing down the paceline. Then the whole paceline comes around the worn-out leader? If that's the case, no wonder the group shrank down to three riders.

Maybe I don't understand the ride description.

(But I've been on rides like this where nobody pulls off the front voluntarily. Yes, the group's speed varies wildly, and it wasn't a paceline, just a drafting group ride.)

gregf83 

Agree with everything else you said but this isn't really correct. It is faster to increase power on the hills and ease off on the downhills. Trying to maintain a constant speed will be the fastest. Putting out a lot of power on the downhill is inefficient because you'll waste most of your power for a marginal increase in speed and small time savings.

brianappleby

greg is right. Your effort is best spent when you are going the slowest because of the math behind air resistance. Of course this assumes that tactics and group dynamics aren't involved.

datlas 

That's what I was thinking. I have never ridden pacelines like that, in my club we do it the "normal" way, take your turn, then pull off and drift to the back...are you sure the club WANTS to do it the way you describe?

unterhausen

when you are taking a pull, never pull off at the very bottom of a hill. You will get shelled eventually

carpediemracing 

That may be true at some level, but when trying to maximize average speed, it isn't. The problem is that the rider is limited to a certain set of power parameters (like "200 watts possible for 60 min, 400 watts possible for 2 minutes, 450 watts possible for 1 minute, 1000 watts possible for 20 seconds").

I haven't done any calculations, but in a breakaway in a race, you want to hover on threshold, not have a jagged line of jumps and dips in power. Breaks that go steady win. Those that have dramatic spikes on hills or headwinds tend to explode, get disorganized, and get caught. Unless, of course, one of those guys causing the rhythm changes is doing it on purpose.

This is why commentators talk about "climbing at their own pace" when racers start dropping off on long climbs. If you bury yourself in the red, you go slower overall than if you ease a bit and go steady all the way up a long climb.

So, yes, it's faster if you go harder on the hills, but not if the rider explodes.

Also, although on some downhills you can actually pedal at 100 watts for a while, most of them involve a few seconds of higher efforts followed by 20 seconds of coasting (or something to that effect). You can maintain a high average speed, higher than possible just by coasting, by making judicious efforts on a descent. Your average wattage will be low though, like 100-150 watts.

cdr

kimconyc

If it's advertised as no drop, just climb at your own pace and regroup at the top.

Otherwise, this is where you can attack and hopefully you do not get caught until the sprint before the end (state line, bike shop, etc.).

gregf83 

The guys that have done the calcs find that it's better to go 10-15% harder on the hills in a hilly time trial.

If, for example, you were in a break riding at your threshold you would normally have some AWC reserves available. If you came to a 5 min hill that would be a good time to use those reserves and recover on the downhill.

rufvelo

This one.

ptle

I'd say it depends on the ride. One ride I do, we pick it up on hills and some people attack, which leads to others getting dropped. That's fine as we'll meet up at the next stop sign. If someone doesn't think they can keep up, we may slow it down or encourage them to stay in the group even if they drop off on hills, and we wait (if necessary) at stops. Even though we got a a fast pace, it's still a no drop. This can be annoying for someone looking for a fast group ride looking for a high average speed, but that's not exactly what the group is for.

Another ride I do, they increase the power on climbs and drop lots of people. After that, if you can't catch up, you're on your own.

If you're having trouble keeping up on hills, try to not take a pull a few minutes before the climb. Save your energy so you can stay with the pack. If you are taking a pull and want to look out for others, don't increase your power to much on the hills (unless this upsets the group) to help the weaker guys.

kimconyc

One more thing, if it's just that you can't keep up on the hill but can after the hill, you can do what Chris Carmichael calls "The Big Fade":
If your "climb" is a mountain (like something like 4,000ft+ straight climb) then you might be S.O.L. (lose a lot of weight, get better genes, etc.).

Smallguy

yes I'm sure that is how they wanted to do the paceline

I prefer the "normal" way but who am I to argue

we were trying to keep pulls short say 30 seconds because of the headwinds but it was not always possible

merlinextraligh

When you weigh 90kg, and race in West Virginia, you quickly master this technique, or you ride alone a lot. Start at the front, drift back, keep the group in sight over the top, bomb descent, catch back on, repeat.

topflightpro

Another trick is to start sliding behind the last rider before he finishes passing you.

Too often, new group riders wait until the last rider is fully past him or her before sliding over. This means you already are gapped and have to push it to catch back on. Pay attention to who is last and start sliding over when he or she is halfway past you, that way you slide right into the slipstream without a gap forming.

ptle

Riding in a small (less than ten) rotating pace line, I quickly learned to increase my power as I neared the last guy. That way I can smoothly transition behind the last rider, without having to do a small sprint.

It's easier for me to slowly increase my power and move over than do a small sprint to "catch" back on the rear wheel.

Basil Moss

Ride up it full gas. Then wait for everyone if it's that kind of a ride, or don't if it isn't. Or if there are fatties on the ride who are precious about this, let yourself to the back of the pack where you'll find them puffing and blowing to hold the wheel, and engage them in polite conversation that they will feel compelled to reply to.

The Weak Link

Wait until somebody drops his chain, then gun it....

RNAV

In the groups I've ridden with in the past, it was generally accepted that the paceline would rotate the riders through during the flats. Major climbs were an opportunity for each individual to work on their fitness (i.e. you're on your own); we'd regroup at the summit and carry on.

This philosophy works well for non-competitive rides. It allows those who want to attack the climb to do so, and inspires those less fit to work harder to improve.