on the path

I knew it was a "quick" ride, as I had done it several times before. My buddy that I usually stay with on that ride was absent, so I tried to keep up with the "fast" guys. These are the strongest riders in my area. However, wearing a team kit doesn't necessarily make one a good person to ride with or a good wheel to follow.

I was admittedly struggling to keep up, but I was holding my own, staying within the pack. Finding a good wheel was a problem. One guy would stop pedaling without warning on a fairly steep incline, making his speed very erratic. I got away from him. Eventually, while going uphill, a rider immediately in front of me braked hard. I overlapped wheels and had to brake harder than I really wanted to. We banged wheels and swapped some rubber. I thought for sure I was going down and taking a few with me. By some stroke of luck, I stayed up, then apologized to the riders behind me for hitting my brakes. They said it was fine. Not with me though. I drifted to the back of the pack and mentally re-grouped.

Many of said riders consistently are winners when they race. I ride for fun, but like to challenge myself. I've been getting better and faster. I've been described as a "strong rider" and that I "ride pretty hard".

The mental "re-group" was about my feelings regarding group rides. Of course I'll continue to do it. And I'll try to get better at "playing with others", even though I think I'm pretty good at it as far as being a steady and predictable rider, and one who is very aware and wants to be as safe as possible while acknowledging the inherent risks.

/end rant

merlinextraligh

Uhm, if the people you were having trouble with are racing and consistently winning, I'm betting the problem is you, not them.

My reading between the lines take on this is that the fast people at the front of this ride are riding it as a "competitive" training ride, (riding in a pack, not a paceline, with surges, attacking, countering, sprinting etc.) whereas you're used to a smoother, cooperative pace line.

And the difference in expectations and experience is causing the friction.

On a specific instance, the overlapping wheels was your fault, it's always your responsibility to protect your own front wheel. I don't know if the rider in front shares some blame, but it's absolutely your obligation to protect your front wheel regardless of what others do.

RacerOne

If you continue to ride with this group, my guess is you will look back at this post one day and be embarrassed. Which, by the way, is a good thing. Although maybe not, everybody has bad days on the bike, including the fast guys.

gadabout007

if it's your first ride with a group, you're almost always better off hanging in the back for a while to survey how the group flows.

Overlapping wheels is always the fault of the rider in the back. It sounds like your getting tunnel vision and only focusing on the wheel in front of you. Don't do that, it's bad. Instead keep your head up a bit, look ahead of the rider in front of you and you'll be able to anticipate changes in speed.... That guy who "braked hard" did so for a reason and if you're only following his wheel, you'll be surprised ever time. I'm not saying they're doing everything right, but if you're paying proper attention, you can mitigate most of these risks.

When you're climbing in a group, you need to give more room to the rider in front of you. I'll usually give a wheel length and stagger myself so when the inevitable shoot comes from someone in front of me standing, there's no risk of collision.

roadwarrior

Why are you ranting?

carpediemracing 

+1

Seems like you had a close call, you have an idea of what caused it, and you didn't press after the fact. Other than trying to stay aware of what's going on 20-40 feet in front of you it seems you did fine.

njkayaker

Pacelining on "fairly steep inclines"? That doesn't seem prudent.

DGlenday

I'm getting tired of hearing / reading this.

If you're tall, lucky you - you can do this.

I'm not - and I can almost never see ahead of the rider in front of me. All I can see is his butt and back, and of course, his wheel. If I want to look ahead, I have to come out of his draft, usually to the left, have a glance, then get back on the wheel. That makes it erratic for the person on my wheel, and I'm only getting an occasional look ahead.

I've tried sitting more upright - doesn't help much, and I don't have the brake control I need. In the evenings I can sometimes see the shadows of the riders ahead, and on the rare occasion I get a smaller rider ahead of me, then I can look ahead. But that rarely happens.

on the path

Umm, winning races has very little to do with riding well with a group. If one is the ultimate fast rider, one is quickly in front of and away from the pack. One can be strong and fast, and also a very poor group rider.

I've done many, many group rides. With many of the mentioned riders, too. I've been in very fast pacelines that were cooperative and relatively safe. The one I spoke of wasn't so much. I fully understand that in absolute terms one is responsible for ones front wheel. Most of us realize that there will be situations where this isn't true - pickup truck braking hard in front of a paceline is an excellent example.

I and everyone stayed upright, and that's what ultimately matters. I get it. Doesn't mean I won't think about it, or won't post my thoughts to the 41.

caloso

I think you may be misunderstanding what it means to look ahead. It isn't that you will have a clear, unobstructed view of the road ahead, but that you'll have some view of the riders ahead. Are they swerving? Are they standing and surging? Are they braking? Are they leaning into a cross wind?

Looking ahead means reading the actions of the group you're a part of, not just trying to see the pavement.

on the path

Me too, but for different reasons. I can and do look up and ahead. Wasn't always this way, but I'm now comfortable enough in close quarters to keep my head up and not even look at wheels. Also have bumped elbows at speed with hardly a thought.

merlinextraligh

Uhm, no. At an entry level, there are a very few people who just ride away from the pack and solo to wins. These are the guys that are Cat 2's by the end of their first season. Otherwise, you're going to be spending a lot of time riding in a pack racing, and unless you've got the skill to manuever around that pack you are not going to consistently win races.

I understand that fitness, and bike handling are seperate issues, but the people that consistently win bike races almost always have both.

merlinextraligh

+1. You can also use your ears, listen for freehub pawls clicking, brakes going on, rims hitting potholes.

And you can see ahead without looking over top of the rider in front, by looking past their legs, or through their legs. So being in a lower position may actually be better than sitting up.

surreycrv 

you sound like the kid who was totally into his ride, head down in the drops, and just booking it. The next thing he was in the back of a parked car. Why, because he refused to pay attention to his surroundings, that he was some supergland impervious to the world. So bend your head up, look down the road and not at the ass of the rider ahead.

DaveWC

Supergland?

agoodale

I'm only 5'8" and have no trouble seeing ahead of guys that are much taller (and most of the time wider) than me. You can ride mostly in their draft and just stick your head out. You can ride off to the side just slightly. You can look through their arms & legs. Being short is not much of an excuse to not be looking ahead.

+1 on listening to what's going on ahead as well.

njkayaker

The idea is that, if the racers are not good group riders, they are crashing rather than winning races. (Being "strong and fast" isn't enough to win races.)

Matt Gaunt

+2. Using your full range of senses really is what being a good group rider is all about. Planning ahead makes for a smooth and predictable paceline or pack and that is a very good thing. If you are working on reactions all the time, you are bound to be involved in situations like the one you describe. Still, sounds like you handled it well and you will have that experience for the next time you ride with that group.

RacerOne

If this is true, then I guess my question would be what in the heck are you doing nearly riding into the back of peoples wheels?

ericm979

Try riding just to the side, just enough to see a little of the riders in front. All you need to see is their helmets or shoulders. You don't need to see their backs. If you're smart, you'll do it on the leeward side so you're still in the full draft. In the rare instance of riding with no cross wind, you'll take a little wind on your shoulder. It's worth it to know what's going on. If you're in a group and the riders are two or more abreast, you ride slightly to the inside and look up between riders. Sometimes riders will shift and you'll lose the view. But if you keep your concentration and focus up front you can still monitor things by listening if nothing else. And soon riders will shift and you'll get your view back.

My front teeth are all dead because I wasn't watching far enough forward in a pack and some idiot up front slammed on the brakes. If I'd been paying proper attention I'd have avoided crashing and smashing my face on the pavement. Rather than concentrating on how it doesn't work, figure out how to make it work. So you don't end up like me.

carpediemracing 

I've never been accused of being tall. I look through knees, past arms/ankles, etc. I'll also move 4-6" off line, not a huge amount but enough for me to peek. When staying on a wheel really counts you can usually see what you need to see.

There are times when I can't see what's going on, can't hear, I'm riding blind, and at those points I usually back off just a bit. It's typically when I'm in the center of a large group (usually in a race), I've temporarily lost my bearings so I'm not sure exactly what's coming up (i.e. I don't know if it's 200 or 220 meters to the corner or if that pothole is in 20 meters or 25 meters), and there's some noise going on (PA, wind, yelling, etc). Usually at that point backing off a bit doesn't affect me, so sitting in the center of an 80 rider group going 35 mph... leaving an extra 3-5 feet won't detract from the draft etc.

The only thing I question is the term "rant". It's more of an observation/report.

on the path

If one is following by a distance of a wheel diameter or less, at 20+ mph, one is by definition nearly riding into the back of the wheel in front. And if in that situation a rider suddenly brakes really hard, it is not possible for the rider behind to react fast enough. It's a pretty simple concept really. As I mentioned, the guy following isn't always at fault, except for the fact that he decided to leave home that day.

In my situation it was a double pace line. I had a rider to my left and nowhere to go on the right. Sometimes there's no way out. A lot of assuming going on here.

datlas 

Good posting.

I agree it sounds like this was more of a "race and chase" training ride rather than a cooperative paceline ride.

Sadly, sometimes group rides end up being a little bit of both.

For me, the biggest annoyance is when a rider immediately in front of me stands up suddenly to accelerate...if I am just a foot or two off his wheel, that momentary "throw" backwards always freaks me out. I have ID'd the worst offenders in my club and try to stay off their wheels.

You may wish to do the same with those in your group.

rkwaki

I'm with merlin on this. If these guys are consistently winning races and riding like that then I think op might be the issue. The statement about riding off the front may apply to lower category racers but not Elite guys. As an Elite rider I can assure you that I do not ride like this. My buddies watched me take my hands off the bars in a race, take my sunglasses off and stuff them in my pocket at speed. This was mid-pack and a skill most elite guys can do.
Rather than rant I would take a look at what you were doing to cause these issues and fix them. I can assure you guys like ME don't deal well with guys who threaten the safety of the group.

DGlenday

You're right, and I do try to do that when I can - especially when there's no traffic. Of course, it isn't possible to do that all the time.

I've done a lot of paceline riding and have successfully avoided problems many times, and never touched a wheel. So many people make it sound so easy with posts like "just look up the line and anticipate what's coming". My point is that it is not always as easy as those posters suggest.