nipperdawg

Hi all, long time no pedal

My Giant Hybrid with a Binox drive was flooded by Hurricane Sandy. I was thinking about replacing the bike as i sort of out grew it. I couldnt crank power into it on the trail or on the street. The nike just needed pedals replaced and the chain from salt water emmersion (an our). the nike will be relegated to shopping and guest duties.

I have a old Centurion Lemans which was last updated 7 years ago before my car accident so that has me covered for pure road riding.

I have been looking at trail bikes. A bike that can handle the less then stellar roads of NYC and non paved bike paths, and some single track riding. I also need it to be a platform for a Bionx system. Since my storage options are few, I discovered a Montague Paratrooper Pro. https://www.montaguebikes.com/paratro...ding-bike.html . I have test ridden one and i liked it. I am just not sure about the premium for the folding part of it or what to compare it to for an equivalent alternative. I havent really kept up on the quality of the components the last 8 years (car accident). The Giant was a bike to back me back into riding, and now i need a better fit.

I like the fact the Paratrooper bends for storage (I dont really need to fold it as to bend it). I liked the discs on the bike, much better then my giant. The locking front fork suspension is something i wished (and did not know existed) on the Giant. The Paratrooper from what I have been told wont accept a real supported bike rack, but i think it is more of a matter of not allowing the bike to fold completly as opposed to not fitting. I liked how there was no flex in the frame.

So my questions:
I like the bike, and am looking for opinions on it and or the equipment on it
What would be the equivalent non folding bike to it (front suspension a must) in the 700 range. I know the paratrooper Pro is 979 but I am discounting for lack of folding.
What should I be looking for in a mountain bike?

I ride NYC streets, Paved bike paths, canal paths, dirt trails with the occasional log, lots of tree roots, some steep climbs and weigh 180-190 (if we count Christmas cookies).

Thanks.

Dynocoaster 

These are nice bikes and they have big apple tires that are nice and when a suspension isnt needed.
https://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/bik/3568031912.html

snafu21

"What should I be looking for in a mountain bike?"

Decent fit, followed by a couple of sets of tyres for the different terrain. (City/Dirt). Double wall rims if you're a hooligan.

Front sus lock-out is much ado about nothing. You won't loose much energy on tarmac with the suspension left to boing around, and you'll have a more comfortable and faster ride on rough areas.

I don't think the Paratrooper will take a rear rack. (No frame threads?) but it will take a seat post rack.

The usual answer to these threads is that the current 26" wheel bikes are the Dahon Jack & Espresso (no sus), and Montague range.

Front suspension for mild trail, city & XC work only needs to be medium travel around 4" (100mm) or less.

"dirt trails with the occasional log, lots of tree roots, steep climbs"

= MTB gearing, 21/24/27 speeds, 26" wheel cross-country hardtail (XC) bike.

Paratrooper, I think. Very versatile, especially if you're a dirt monkey. :-)

I have a Dahon Jack which is a great city/light trail bike, but for rougher stuff front sus is better, and faster, and heavier.

I also have a home-brew MTB with much the same spec gear as the Paratrooper (sealed bottom bracket, Acera, Suntour XCT crankset etc) and it's done three years dirt duty. All of it good. 9 speed drive train on Para means skinny chain = slightly more wear but more gears.

Keep it lubed up and swap the cables out once a year is all it needs. Front mechs fill up with crap, so get replaced annually, so cheaper is better. Head-race bearings also need lube about twice a year or more often if you ride in the rain. It's all easy to do.

Don't forget front suspension forks need servicing.

Here's the NYCe bikes vid, with great helicopter shots:

dynaryder

Incorrect. While the OP is in NYC,lockout is a major deal in hilly places. It makes climbing much easier,and braking on decents much safer(no front end dive).

tds101 

I personally wish I owned only 2 bikes, and they are the Xootr Swift, and the second is the Montague Paratrooper Pro. Both bikes are said to handle like a non-folding bike. Neither is all that small when in a folded state, but IMO it's a fair compromise for the ride & heftier weight bearing capacity of these bikes.

snafu21

"Incorrect"

Not really. It's debatable how much energy is lost to 'bobbing' when cycling up city hills with modern front suspension and that also depends on the fork preload settings, fork rebound settings, spring rate, tyre pressures, surface, head angles, rider technique and tyre type.

MTB's tend to run low to medium pressures on fat, high rolling resistance, tall tyres on heavy (2Kg) double-wall wheels with fat spokes, so you would need to deal with the comparatively much larger energy losses there, first, to gain anything. Suntour XCR forks alone weigh 2.2 Kg, an MTB wheel and tyre 4Kg. An issue at competition levels on low mass road bikes, maybe. But not on a 14Kg MTB, carrying a seated 70Kg rider with a 3Kg backpack and 1.5Kg of drinks.

Dive on braking is not a safety issue. It occurs on every vehicle and increases downforce on the road, and therefore increases grip. Suspension reduces tyre bounce, keeps the tyre on the road, and increases grip where this would otherwise decrease due to rebound. Grip is usually taken as the multiple of the downforce and the co-efficient of friction between the two surfaces. Bounce = less contact = less grip. Weight transfer (dive) is essential.

What fork compression does do is steepen up head angles under heavy braking. That may or may not be an issue for some. One other use of fork lockouts, for instance, is to compress the forks and lock them down, to give more nimble city handling due to a steeper head angle. Locking forks down also lowers stand-over height which can be an issue on bikes with long-travel (not the Paratrooper) forks.

There are endless front suspension designs for folders (Birdy, Moulton, Dahon, Downtube) where the benefits of having front suspension on city bikes outweigh theories about comparatively tiny energy loss when climbing, and the non-issue of brake dive on descents.

There's a user discussion here: Fork lockout doesn't get used much. It's also a pain in the ass if it doesn't get used as there's one more rusting cable to replace every year. The cable connection to the fork is also fiddly (on the Suntours) and covers get lost. I have it, but could easily live without it.

Wiki: 'The problems of pedal bob and brake jack began to be solved in the early 1990s.'

Especially on the lighter frames and oil damped forks we have now.

"Fork dive, and brake squat are not important enough, or even relevant enough, to obsess over." MTB magazine.

Yup

cplager

It might be debatable how much energy is lost, but energy is lost. I've ridden the same bike with both a suspension fork and a fixed fork, and I could tell the difference.

I'm not telling anybody to not get one, but they are noticeably lossy.

Now, there I'm going to just flat out disagree with you. The first time I was riding my comfort bike on a trail, some idiots were walking their dog on a 30 foot leash and he proceeded to walk in front of me. I braked hard and I went right over.

Now I agree that once you know that is going to happen, you can adjust. But it is one more safety complication.

I do understand that regardless of front suspension, the front wheel supports most of the weight during braking and therefore provides most of the braking. I've never had a (noticeable) problem with tire bounce and while I agree that suspension can do many things, making braking safer isn't really one of them in my opinion.

Cheers,
Charles

dynaryder

You're talking about high end forks,we're talking about low-to-mid level bikes that the OP is interested in.

We're talking about street riding,not trail riding. Many street riders run 'slicks',which are very different from dirt knobbies.

Again,we're not talking about MTB's with high end bits,we're talking about street machines with more pogo stick components. And it does not occur on rigid bikes. Also,brake dive can be a safety issue. Most MTB'rs don't have to worry about a car try to left hook them in an intersection on a steep hill while traveling 25+mph. I do all the time.

If dive was that essential,then why did every major motorcycle manufacturer in the '80's come up with a system to combat it? Why do Beemers have Telelever front ends?

And again,most of the lower/mid level MTB's that see commuting duty don't have remote lockouts. This argument is moot.

And one last time,we're not talking about MTBing,we're talking about street riding. Locking your suspension to climb a hill can be a big deal when you have to go from MacArther Blvd to Ward Circle to get home from work every day.

noteon 

The OP mentioned steep climbs. There are a few in NYC, particularly in Northern Manhattan, and some even steeper ones right over the GW Bridge, where lots of NYC cyclists go.

Ozonation

I don't know much about the pros and cons of suspension forks, but if you get a Montague, please do a full write up and review! I've been looking at one for when I travel to visit family in the BC Rockies, but it would be great to get a recent perspective.

snafu21

"And again, most of the lower/mid level MTB's that see commuting duty don't have remote lockouts. This argument is moot."

The bike in question, the Paratrooper Pro, has both 'fat' tyres and fork lockout. The 14Kg+ weights I quoted are from the current spec of that bike.

The analogy of BMW Telelever suspension isn't relevant: Telelever bikes transfer the same amount of weight to the front tyre, all else being equal, as they are unable to bypass the physics of braking. They attempt to keep the front of the bike 'level' under braking, but weight transfer to the front tyre still occurs, and the front tyre still compresses under braking. Telelever replaces two sprung stanchions with a single variable rate sprung damper, reducing unsprung mass. The physics at the wheel/tyre/ground are unchanged other than the head angle of the fork/frame remains more or less unaffected, and spring force (resultant) feedback to the rider is reduced, as is stiction and torsional forces on the fork. Telelever tries to separate steering and braking forces. It's not fitted to Paratrooper bicycles.

Charles going over his handlebars during emergency braking: have a look on the Sheldon Cooper pages for an explanation. If it happened on a loose 'trail' surface it's not so relevant as the dynamics of loose surface braking are very different.

The transfer of weight to the front tyre is essential for maximum braking effect. 'Dive' (weight transfer) on braking happens even on rigid fork bikes; the tyre compresses instead of the forks as weight transfers to the front.

Grip is (only) a molecular result of the combined co-efficient of friction between the two surfaces and the downforce on the tyre, on hard surfaces. Less downforce = less grip. Suspension on wheeled vehicles aids braking and steering at higher speeds on rough (tarmac) surfaces, as wheel rebound - with consequent loss of downforce and therefore grip, is reduced. Suspension damping is there to keep the wheel on the ground by aiding the bump-following capacity:

Bumps and surface imperfections in the road cause tire compression—which induces a force on the unsprung weight. The unsprung weight then responds to this force with movement of its own. The amount of movement, for short bumps, is inversely proportional to the weight - a lighter wheel which readily moves in response to road bumps will have more grip and more constant grip when tracking over an imperfect road. Suspension therefore mitigates un-sprung weight adversely affecting both braking, and acceleration.

At street level, fork preload needs to be adjusted to rider weight and riding style, and yes, the Paratrooper Pro, the reason we're here folks, has pre-load adjust. At elevated levels of competition, rebound damping is set to match the terrain.

All bikes have weight transfer under braking. Suspension bikes can brake more efficiently, with shorter braking distances than rigid fork bikes on bumpy surfaces.

At the tyre level there is also a Resultant upward force resisting all this.

Carry on.

nipperdawg

Wow i got this all in one email dump I was worried the list was quiet.

The fork lock on the bike is mounted at the fork, a flip lever, which is fine for me. I could never really get the preload on the Giant bike to work right, or i never turned it the 30 gazzilion times it required.
I am trying to justify the extra cost of the pro. A few more speeds is nice, but I am not sure how many would be duplicates. I know on the giant I wished it had a super low speed a taller top gear (3x7) but also the geometry annoyed me. It was a hybrid, and a lazy one at that. Granted this was my first bike after a car accident where there was a big question on my ability to walk, hence why i still need a crutch (the BIONX system). There are hills on my regular paths I ride on where the front fork did rob me of power.
.
The debate is getting the pro and the shorter range BIONX system (pl350) or getting the std one and the higher end Bionx System. Also sadly my tolerance for bicycling on the hybrid was 30 miles, but then again it had a very lazy frame geometry to it.

Brake dive on a motorcycle is more of an issue then in a car. When the front end of the car dives, you have two wheels on the ground in the front stabelizing the car. Any upst results in possibly wheel hop. On a motorcycle, any upset can cause the bike to loose balance. The front suspension is compressed, so the ability to deal with the reason for the upset is greatly reduced. Brake dive does aid in the ability of the vehical to stop from high speeds, but on a bicycle those speeds are never achieved.

"If the motorcycle is equipped with telescopic forks, the added load on the front wheel is transmitted through the forks, which compress. This shortening of the forks causes the front end of the bike to move lower, and this is called brake dive.Brake dive can be disconcerting to the rider, who may feel like he or she is about to be thrown over the front of the motorcycle. If the bike dives so far as to bottom out the front forks, it can also cause handling and braking problems. One of the purposes of a suspension is to help maintain contact between the tire and road. If the suspension has bottomed out, it is no longer moving as it should, and is no longer helping to maintain contact.
While excessive brake dive is disconcerting, and bottoming out can cause loss of traction, a certain amount of brake dive reduces the rake and trail of the motorcycle, allowing it to more easily turn. This is especially important to racers trail brakingon entrance to corners."

The Paratrooper I testrode was not the pro. I found it lighter then the numbers indicate (perception). The bike was responsive, and the discs were strong. I was ready to give up on Discs after the Giant as I thought they were poor perfomers except for in the rain. I did manage to jump the chain once, but that was my fault as I was not used to the trigger shifters. I did like the bike. Just was not sure if it was worth the cost vs a non folding bike.

nipperdawg

For the record i like to ride in NYC, and NYC is not flat, especially in what we call upstate Manhattan. There is a reason they use the words "heights" . I live on Long Island, where we just had a beuatiful new long traail and park . It is part of an older bike path that has a both a paved path, and a dirt trail. Part of the trail is the right of way for a never finished expressway (and never will be) that has some really scary climbs (for me) on dirt. I also ride canal paths a lot in NJ and PA. The bike does see a varied terrain. My road bike (Century Le Mons) I am going to start riding on paved paths to see what i can do/tolerate/move safely. I want this for everything else , from paved to trails to food shopping.

Thanks for all the input.

noteon 

Yeah. There aren't any long climbs, but there are one or two pretty steep ones.

nipperdawg

Well after much (and annoying) research with my wallet and needs as my guide, I had to rule out the Paratrooper bike. Not being able to get a strong rack on the bike, and with hyd brakes available at a lower price point on a diamondback, I think I am going that route.

Thanks all.

tds101 

What Diamondback are you getting? I'd luv to know,...

Ozonation

Hmmm.... you can't affix a strong rack to the Paratrooper Pro? (Or at least a regular rack?)

nipperdawg

There are un even mounts at the rear hub for a rack. You can do a seat stem mounted rack, but my bag has the drop down side bags, there is no way to stop those from going into the wheel.

nipperdawg

I spent the last week doing a lot of research on prices, touching, feeling, markups and reviews.

I had narrowed it down to a TREKJ till i tripped over a Diamondback at a sporting good store. BACK TO THE INTERNET!

https://www.diamondback.com/2012-overdrive-sport

This got great reviews. The only complaint was that the front fork was a on the heavy side.

The same thing in a trek crossed over the 1000.00 mark. A Trek with a locking fork was almost 900.00

tds101 

Damn nice bike!!! I'd luv to ride that in my local park,...it would be perfect to take off wuss path & ride the wooded bike courses. My 20" wheeled mini velo can't do that - this beast would be perfect!!!

nipperdawg

I just have to see it one more time in person before i get it