jyl

I'm picking tubular tires for the Team Pro.

Until now, my only tubular riding has been on Vittoria Rallys. I'm cheap.

My criteria are: as light as possible, tan wall, removable core. I'm wondering whether to spend the coin for a pair of Veloflex Records (about $100/tire).

Questions:
- Will I feel the difference between the $40 Rally and a more expensive tubular?
- Should I get 23 mm or 25 mm?
- Would you suggest a different tire than the Record?

This bike will be ridden on city and country roads, seldom in rain, less than 1000 miles/year. The roads are of variable quality but I don't go out of my way to seek rough surfaces and I do "ride light".

repechage

I will be contrarian. 23 front, 25 mm rear. I like the feel of the narrower tire up front.

iab

The Record is 22mm. I also believe the lightness is due to a thin tread. You won't get many miles.

I run the 25mm Veloflex Roubaix. I used to run the 23mm Veloflex Criterium. I prefer the Roubaix. If you look around, I tend to spend $75-$80 per tire.

I'm no princess and can't feel a pea, but the difference between the good versus the cheapos should be apparent.

jimmuller 

I just mounted a set of Veloflex Criteriums for the Masi, been out once for 45 miles, liked what I felt. The tread area did not take any abuse that I could see. They measured 22.7mm. They don't lose air as quickly as the Vittoria Corsas I put on the Motobecane. I like the feel of a lighter tire. But that's all I can say.

iab, what is it you prefer about the Roubaix? Just the width?

Road Fan

I and a lot of others have found Vittoria Rallyes quite variable in quality and durability. Acceptable when they're good, but nowhere near as good as a Challenge Paris-Roubaix, a Gommitalia Espresso (a friendly tip from Lotek), or a classic Vittoria CG.

Skinny tubulars are a lot nicer than skinny clinchers, but 27 mm tubulars give you an invincible sense of rim protection.

Road Fan

I haven't tried them, but I'd think FMB is the standard choice for classic vintage quality.

iab

Yes. It may be perception, but those extra 2mm allows me to run at about 95psi and it feels more comfortable. But I don't know if I could pass a blind taste test.

Fred Smedley

The new Michelin Pro4 tubular come in 25 and Michelin's run big. Michelin Pro4 Tubular Road Bike Tyre | Chain Reaction Cycles Not tan side wall , but that would not matter to me unless I had to match another tire.

bibliobob

I'll never use anything but a mid or high quality tubular again, and at least 25mm. Vittoria Corsas, Challenge Eroicas, etc. Thanks to iab, I now have a couple sets of Dugast 32s, which are divine, even with a small tread.

jimmuller 

Foggy Mt. Breakdown? Yes, it is indeed classic vintage quality but how does it relate to bike tires?

Thanks for the reply.

I know there is disagreement in C&V as in the rest of the bike world (like I pay much attention to the roadies ) about optimal tire pressure. And some here, like the Col. for example, prefer much wider tires on wider rims. As you say, it may be just impression instead of reality, but I prefer a narrower tire and rim combination because I can feel the weight difference. And I'm pretty sure, or at least I believe I am pretty sure, or at least I can convince myself that I believe that I am pretty sure that I can feel a reduction in rolling resistance with higher pressure.

I've ridden the Vittoria Corsas at 145 (my solo century last month) and the Veloflex Criteriums at 140. I really like how they feel but I have no real comparisons for them. I've commuted (30mi round trip, 750ft of climbing each way) on my Bianchi with 25mm Gatorskin clinchers many times, including all this week; today I ran them topped off to about 122 as compared to the 100 they'd sunk to, and I think they roll easier. But bumps have never especially bothered me unless they are so big (as some are) that they'd bother me regardless of the tire pressure. And conditions (wind, heat, traffic, my energy) vary so much from day to day that transit-time numbers wouldn't tell a good story. So all I can judge is how they feel.

Back to the question of which tubulars, JJScaliger got me started on the tubular thing, plus the fact that the Moto's wheels were tubular so it was the only option. He runs cheap tires on purpose, but I figure why bother unless you're going to run something good? Why not run a good clincher instead of a cheap tubular? So far I like the transition to tubulars.

Addendum: I wonder about tire specs! They can be all over the map. I see WesternBikeWorks is running a July 4 sale, so I looked up their selections. They list the Veloflex Criterium as having a max pressure 125psi, and thread count of 300tpi. I had thought it was 320tpi (not that it makes a big difference), and I know the sidewalls of the ones I have now are stamped 145psi, same as what the Veloflex website said last time I looked. Do they just not get their specs right, or do Veloflex (and others) change their specs fairly often? Either way, it makes it hard to know what is what.

Wildwood 

I ran with the Rallye initially, but have migrated to Continental Sprinters. I recently got a deal on a pair of Specialized that I have yet to mount. I run 2 bikes tubular and soon a third.

I'll go to confessional: When I go into a bike shop, I always look for tubular tires, even if I don't need them. If they don't have any on the shelves - frequently the case - I ask if there are 'any old tubies you might have on sale?' 3 times I've discovered they had tubies but didn't put them out as it's not a standard item, or a prior customer failed to pick up a special order. First time a pair of Rallye for $30. Then a single Michelin for $35. Last time the Specialized S-Works Turbo pair for $70.

Does anyone use Stan's No Tubes - liquid latex - to extend the life of tubies? It doubled the life of the inexpensive Vittorias.

edit: reread the OP's post and saw he wants tan sidewalls - mine aren't, so you can disregard this post.

Wildwood 

+1. and also on my clinchers.

I'm also in the camp with jimmuller about running them at higher pressure than clinchers. 115 tubular vs 100 clincher. But I'm a big guy at 6'1", 205 lbs.

RobbieTunes

High-performance: Conti Sprinter Gatorskin or Bontrager Race XXX Lite. Very poor durability, but oh, so smooth.
Durability: Tufo S 33, but not the smoothest ride around.
Mix: Challenge Criteriums, still a little expensive for day in/day out.

I've got a set of new Tufo Specials in 700x25, just waiting for others to wear out, which will be quite a while.

jyl

I'm looking through the Western Bike Works selection too. I live close to their store and have been going on their shop rides, so I'd like to buy from them.

Not a lot of choice in tan walls. Do I give up and go with black wall? This is a 1978 bike, tan walls will look better.

rootboy 

What's yer budget?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Veloflex...item19ef343ccf

iab

This I don't understand.

I can show you studies showing there is little to no correlation between tire pressure and rolling resistance. Higher isn't better. Lower isn't better.

But, with running at 140-145 only exposes you to feeling every micro-crack and tiny tiny pebble you ride over. You feel everything which only leads to fatigue of the rider. Running tires as low as your weight can allow, allows the tire to conform into and around road defects, not bash into them. This keeps me happy and fresh.

Fred Smedley

+1.......

Road Fan

FMB is a company that makes hand-made tubular tires, on a par with the classic Vittorias, Clement, and D'Allessandro tires of the '50s and '60s. Price is high, but they are selling or have sold a lot to pros at the TDF level. I don't know what kind of music the guys like!

Pressure for tubulars has been discussed a lot of times here. You can get out the Berto chart, figure out your weight distribution, and read off the recommended pressures, but for a 21 or 23 mm tire it's gonna be pretty high. I think the theory is largely based on pinch prevention. A lot of us target pressures of 90 to 105 psi, even if we book 220 with bike and use 21s. I feel a mid-grade tubular (such as Sprinter) is pretty decent at that level, and I run my 27 mm P-Rs around 80. Higher than 105 gets harsh. If I ever try a 21 mm FMB or Dugast, I'll give it a shot at 140 and see if it remains supple. I haven't found much issue with rim protection even with the lower pressures.

Theory behind the softer-tire crowd is that by the tire flexing when you ride over pavement, it prevents transferring energy to lifting the bike and transferring energy to the rider's body, where it is dissipated into heat and lost. If a tire can flex without hysteresis loss in the rubber under these conditions, it can be more efficient than a hard tire over real-world pavement. At least that's the theory. But, I'm not liking my Hetre-equipped 650b bike, with flexy planey frame and all. Over the past few weeks I've been riding my old 700c trek with 28 mm Conti 3000, and my Mondonico with similar tires - I think lively is a 700c bike with smooth, resilient tires. I like a lot of Jan Heine's thinking, but this idea does not work for me, except that the wider tires are more stable over mixed pavement in a straight line.

JJScaliger

vitt cx iii @$50 is the sweet spot for me. I don't put junk in my tires, so that's as high as I am willing to go on my good bikes. On the Gitane I run yellow jersey jobs. They don't seem to last as long, but penny wise pound foolish is how us shanty swamp yankees roll. Throw 'em in the gutter, go buy another!

jimmuller 

I won't argue. As I said, I have no data to show one way or the other. But I like how all my tires feel pumped up, and I've never felt bothered by the micro-cracks and pebbles. They feel like they roll better at higher pressure, and they seem to carry momentum longer, but I might be deluding myself.

gomango

You are likely deluding yourself.

That pressure is absurd.

Get it down in the 90s in the rear, a little less in front. You have nice tires, let them work for you.

CV-6 

One should be careful making pressure recommendations when the rider's weight is unknown. I would squish a 25 at 90-100 PSI on the rear.

I downloaded the demo version of the Berto app. It figures for 15% "squish" of the sidewall as calculated by Jan Heine. Link to article Its recommendations are 87 front and 135 rear for me with a 25mm tire. I have not yet tried the pressures so I cannot say how it works for me.

FWIW, I am a fan of the FMB 25mm tubulars. I have been running them 110 front and 120-130 rear just based on what I observed when riding. The ride is smooth and responsive. I also have some Challlenge 25mm tires that I have not ridden as much as the FMBs. I do feel the FMB is a superior tire to the Challenge.

gomango

[QUOTE=CV-6;16903783]"I would squish a 25 at 90-100 PSI on the rear."

I weigh 190 and I have ridden a little more than 2,200 miles this year. Zero flats to report on Veloflex or Challenge tubs due to tire pressures. I have picked up glass shards here and there though due to riding on inner city streets. This would have happened regardless of tire pressure. FWIW The FMBs are hardly "dainty" so I wouldn't worry unduly.

"I have not yet tried the pressures so I cannot say how it works for me."


Interesting. You quote Jan Heine, yet you haven't tried his theories. I read BQ as well, but I also ride 200+ miles a week. I've tried running my tires at the pressures you list and it simply isn't necessary.

jimmuller 

Okay, I confess, I weigh only 160lbs. But "necessary" and "like" aren't the same.

One of these days after I retire (no pun intended) and have plenty of time I'll run my own single-blind study of rolling resistance vs. pressure. I know how I'd do it. The results will probably be totally inconclusive, but that's just a guess I shouldn't be making.

Road Fan

The chart Heine published was created with Frank Berto, who is listed as co-author on some of the articles (Heine has put it in print at several publications). I first saw it in the '80s in a book Berto wrote, where he collected a lot of his old Bicycling! materials. I'd assume the original creator was Berto, not Heine.

What app? Please provide a link. For iPhone?

I forget what pressures I ended up with using the chart for my 28s, but I have ridden them and they're ok. I usually go higher, but not up to the tire limit. The Berto pressures for me have a little cush, are easy to ride on, and have not lead to any rim issues or pinch flats. I tend to fill a little higher because of habit and the finickiness of using the tire gauge all the time. But it's around 85 front, 95 rear. Good feeling of zippiness without much jitter. No, I am not going to define all these new technical terms.