noisebeam

One recurring thought I have in regard to the debates over bike lanes is that for me its not about the lanes or no lanes.

By far my biggest motorist interaction concern regards intersections, specifically left turns. I don't mean on quiet backroads, but in the suburban cities and that have turned their surface streets into freeways with roads that are six lanes across and have speed limits up to 50 miles an hour. Where I live has a grid of these type of streets which is basically how ones gets around.

I ride on these daily and have no problem managing the straights with or with out BL or WOL. That is not the issue or the safety concern for me. My stresses are only with left turns.

Sure there are ways to deal:
1. Take a different route. This is not always possible and even when it is, is often inpractical. I often try to plan my routes/trip to avoid left turns on these roads, but often find once out I need to or want to modify a route. And there are so many restrictions if one does try and plan these out.
2. Don't turn like a vehicle - instead go straight thru and then stop and turn bike 90deg and go thru again. I do this when there is a wall of traffic coming behind me and there just is not gap to signal to get into. But I find this maneuver to also have risks as I end up stopping in front of traffic that is behind me as wel as in front of cars waiting to go at point before right turn lanes begin where I am making a 90deg turn. Frankly I find it disorienting as it is not how I drive. Sometimes (if I enter intersection just before red) the traffic gets a green to go before I finish this turn. I find it stressfull to not know how I will handle the intersection before I get there, will there be a gap, will traffic let me in.

Please as this had nothing to do with BL, don't get into this debate here. (Yes BL do affect intersections in general, they may or may not end before intersection and you may need to leave one to cut across three lanes of high speed traffic to make a left turn, but I find there presence or not so minor a factor as to be insignificant in regard to left turns)

Thoughts
-What practical infrastructure can make left turns safer or more possible?
-Do others have this problem?
-Does this issue overshadow other issues you have when out riding?

Al

Ohio Trekker

I tned to agree with you, don't care if there are bike lanes or not but hate making left turns. If the road is one lane in each direction I have no problems signaling my intentions, and stopping in the middle of the lane so cars don't try to squeeze past me to the right. Cars wait for other cars making left hand turns in this situation so they can wait for me, if they have to beep their disontentment, I may turn around and glare at them missing my opportunity to turn, and make them wait a little longer, but once they have stopped I don't worry in the least about how long I take.

As for multiple lanes, when I am in a city, I have a tendency to go a block past my destination and make 3 right turns to end up heading the direction I could have made the left at but don't like to cross three lanes of busy traffic. In some situations the extra block is no big deal, and the lesser of 2 evils!

When I'm riding in Florida, the blocks are too far apart, and the traffice moving far to fast to even think about cutting across 2 lanes, so I cross through the intersection, cut through a shopping center or bank or usually drug store to the right, and come out the drive heading the right direction.

I think you have to apply different techniques to different situations, and gauge what you or comfortable with yourself. Sure I have the right to the road, but I also have a right to live, and don't trust motorists who may think otherwise!!

nick burns

In NJ, the road engineers & planners actually put this idea right into the roadway design (sort of). We call it a jughandle.

When not provided with one of these (actually there aren't any on my commute) and traffic is too heavy to get in proper position for a left turn, I'll usually pass the turn & make a u-turn when safe. Fortunately it's never really been that big of an issue on my route.

noisebeam

And that is part of the problem for me. I much prefer using the road and agree we have a right to use it, but practically speaking I can't use it right and having to ride an extra 3 miles for a detour or go thru parking lots in shopping centers with dangerous (as they are not obeyed) parking lot stop signs is rediculous (but done as I want to live) just to avoid left turns.

Al

noisebeam

If only I could make a U-turn across a 7 lane road during rush hour. That is double the interactoin of just merging across 3 lanes of traffic.

For example there is a deli across the street from my neighborhood. I've tired to walk to it during rush hour, I can see it across the street and intead walk 1/2mi up road to x-walk, then 1/2mi back as there was never a gap in the 45mph bumper traffic to run across - not way to u-turn on a bike! A 1/4mi errand on foot to get milk turns into a 2 1/4mi trip.

Al

nick burns

I feel for you noisebeam. I'm glad I don't have to negotiate anything like that. If I did, I'd seriously look for a different route, even it meant extra mileage. But you said sometimes there's no alternate option, so I don't know what would help. Maybe Ohio Trekker's 3 right turns if it's posible.

As much as we make fun of them here, jughandles do work really well for left turning over multiple lane highways. Maybe you could contact your state's transportation department and ask if they've ever considered implementing them.

noisebeam

Can you show a picture or a diagram of one?

Thx
Al

Helmet Head

A wall of traffic coming behind me and there just is no gap to signal to get into, does not stop me. In fact, if there is a gap, I rarely signal. I look back, which usually suffices as the signal, see that there is a gap, and merge into it.

Now, when there is no gap, that's when I signal. I stick out my left arm straight out, and continue riding straight ahead, looking back over my left shoulder for a second or two, then looking ahead again, back and forth like that, until someone slows down to create a gap for me. Usually the first car goes by but the second car slows. Sometimes, but rarely, I have to wait for the 3rd car.

Once someone in a wall of traffic slows down to create a gap and let me in, I put both hands back on the wheel, take one more look back, and merge left into the lane. Once I have established the right-of-way in the lane, I ride around 2 feet from the left edge of the right lane and repeat the process to negotiate for the right-of-way in the next lane. This is repeated until I'm in the leftmost lane, in which I stay riding near the left edge until I reach the left turn lane and merge into that.

This process is called "negotiation", is considered by many to be an "advanced" traffic cycling technique, and is described in detail in both John Forester's Effective Cycling and John Franklin's Cyclecraft.

For me, the ability to be comfortable while negotiating through "a wall" of high-speed traffic to get into a left turn lane was key to learning to really enjoy cycling in traffic. I estimate you have to do it about a half-dozen times to get really comfortable with it. But after that, it becomes a snap.

Serge

nick burns

Here are two close together on the same stetch of highway. That's a shopping mall parking lot on the north edge of the image which kind of complicates things a bit, but I think you should be able to get how they function.

jeff-o

Jughandles are kinda like roundabouts, though I realize you can't stick a roundabout in the middle of a 55mph highway...

BTW, I've never had the opportunity to cycle through a roundabout, is it easier than a left turn (or jughandle?)

Ohio Trekker

Familiar with the technique, but it doesn't work in all situations. The area of Florida where I typically ride there are 3-4 lanes each direction not including bike, right turn and left turn lanes. Speed limits in commercial areas are typically 40-50 miles an hour. It just doesn't work, and is tough even in a car. You have to plan well in advance, and since there are bike lanes to the right of the traffic lanes, NO ONE is going to cut you any slack, expecting that you should be in the bike lane. The locals call them the blue-hairs, but I am not as specific in my generalizations, and fault the designs of the roads and speed limits as much as I fault the drivers. The most widely practiced traffic maneuver by the majority of drivers requires U-turns everywhere including intersections.

At home in Ohio however, our commercial areas have speed limits of 35, and the ones I ride the most have speed limits of 25, I have no problem using the same technique of merging through multiple lanes in that situation.

Nick, I essentially take advantage of "unofficial" jug handles, must be nice living where they have the room to dedicate that much land to something that looks like it should be pretty effective. Judging roughly by perspective, one of those jug handles would consume at least a million dollars worth of real estate in the Naples, Fl market.

I concur with the safety concerns cutting through parking lots mentioned earlier, but logical evaluation of the safety odds makes my choice the lesser of the evils.

nick burns

Here's a much smaller, less complicated one on the same highway:

nick burns

Yeah, some of them do take up quite a bit of real estate, but those same intersections used to take up quite a few human lives before the jughandles were installed, so I guess you could say it's a worthwhile tradeoff.

noisebeam

This is so rediculous. (Sure I manage fine when gap are present, even relatively short ones)
Negotiation. Ha, ha, ha. When there is a line of three lanes of cars barreling down the road at 50mph, you just stick your hand out and one will slow. Funny stuff. Oh they slow from 50mph to 40mph and you just swerve in front of them because the gap went from one car length to two? On you mean three drivers will realiably slow for you as you negotiate across the lanes. Ever been stuck in the left side of middle lane with cars on either side of you going 50mph and no one slowing. I have. Sure I can make a few of those lane changes, but reliably? Obviously you have never cycled on streets like these - I know it. (I have made left turns like this well over a hundred times - some like cars do when there are reasonable gaps, sometimes I just can't make it across) No one not even a car driver would ever get really comfortable with it. In fact I've missed similar left turns in my car because I couldn't negotate with my 3000lbs SUB and I am the kind if driver that will force my way in front of another car if it is the only choice. Good luck riding like this outside of your cozy local. I can tell you a cyclist riding down the center lane of Broadway during rush hour, cars whizzing by at 50mph on each side with his arm stuck out negotating a left merge has a good chance of being pulled over and sent in for a mental health examination.

Al

Helmet Head

It surprised the hell out of me, but it works. The key is that you don't slow down all the lanes all at once, just one at a time.


They slow down to your speed, and you do not move left in front of them until someone does exactly that.


Three, why three? In each lane, it could be 10, 20 or 100 drivers, I guess. Whatever. Reliably? Sure. Unbelievably, yes. Stick out your left arm like you mean it, look at them. They will slow down, to your speed. You have to believe. The trick is that it's hard to believe, until you see it. You might want to try it on a 4 lane roadway first, get comfortable with the idea of negotiating for the right-of-way one lane at a time there, then move on to 6 or 8 lane roadways.

Never. My experience is that if you're "out there" on a bike, with your left arm clearly indicating your desire to move left, the traffic in that lane will slow to let you in. Always. Reliably. Have you ever tried it and it didn't work? Were you really signalling? Assertively? Or were you just waiting for a gap and not getting one? The immediacy with which motorists react to an assertively outstretched arm signal from a cyclist makes it very hard to believe that you could ever get stuck anywhere like that.


What do you mean? Car drivers can't change lanes on these roads?


There's one difference between you and me. I will never force my way in front of another car, regardless of whether I'm in a car or riding my bike. I always wait for them to yield the right-of-way to me. By the way, the arm signal is also effective when driving, even if you have your left blinker on. Something about that outstretched arm makes it harder to ignore, I guess. But I have noticed that it's actually easier to merge like this on a bike than in a car.


Sounds good to me. I do it every morning on 6 lane eastbound 50 mph La Jolla Village Drive, slight uphill grade, preparing to turn left onto Regents Road.

Serge

AndrewP

On the one big road on my commute, I have always found that the traffic lights create sufficient gaps in the traffic for me to get over to the middle. Sometimes that results in me getting to the middle a hundred yards before the intersection, but that is no big problem.

noisebeam

Three cars need to slow for me as I need to cross three lanes. Does that makes sense?
Reliably - hardly, I have very assertively stuck my hand out while alternatingly looking over shoulder and been passed by a dozen cars, sometimes as I am moving forward as well may cover 1/4mi and then oooops too late I am already at intersection. Yes I have (once) been able to merge left and then gotten stuck in the middle lane and no car will slow to create a gap to let me in. Yes I am asservtive, but guess what, all the driver thinks is I better keep going to make the green light and the next guy will slow for that cyclist.
Other problems, I signal, car slows for me, car in lane to the left of them sees gap created and pops into it. Very common actually. Its a rat race and these rats will do what they can to get ahead.
Yes I have been able to many times successfully merge left across one lane, two lanes, three lanes, but not 100% of the time. 100% is needed so one "feels comfortable" and 'enjoys' it. Actually there are some intersections I get 100% success on, but while they also have 45mph-50mph speed limits, they tend to be a bit lighter in traffic than the problem intersections.
I feel great the 90% of the time works, its the 10% that freaks me out.
Yes it can even be extreemely difficult to merge across 3 lanes of traffic in a car while moving 50mph when everyone is rushing to get to the light and only cares about themselves. No I don't push/force myself in when on a bike, but yes I have pushed myself in to a small gap when in a car as there are a$$holes out there actually speed up and close the gap when one is trying to merge. These same people who won't let a car in front of them will completely ignore the cyclist as they just as well expect the cyclist to move in behind them.

Look I'm glad it works for you on that road and it works for me in many places, but I responded firmly as for you to make it out (even after gaining a lot of experience) to be some low stress enjoyable thing to merge across three lanes of high speed traffic is rediculous.

Al

noisebeam

I'm glad to know I am not the only one who acknowledges that it can even be hard to do in a car. Of course in a car you minimize the situation, that is you can get into left side much earlier and keep up with 50mph traffic. But sometimes you make a right turn into a high speed street and the 1/4mi later need to make a left, so you have to cut across three lanes in your car.

There is a taxi ride I take in San Fran area on occasion, that requires an exit from 101 onto right side of a multilane road moving at high speed, then a left turn 1/4mi later. Several different taxi drivers have instead turned right (on a low traffic street) and then a U-turn. The point is even experienced professional drivers known for their agressiveness have trouble with this type merge thru dense high speed traffic.

Al

I-Like-To-Bike

No need to feel embarrassed about the difficulty you have experienced; most readers probably recognize the ridiculousness of this unique concept of pleasurable "negotiating" for cyclists in dense high speed traffic - hence have found no need to acknowledge anything to the poster of such ideas.

genec

Great, now you are in the center of 6 or 7 lanes... how do you get across the other 3?

I know exactly what Al is talking about as I was just in PHX (3 day weekend) and saw the rush of traffic in some places that is literally like a race track. I happened to hit the city at around 3PM on my way north and was just amazed at the rush hour traffic...

Yes, there are stop lights, but in this large western city, those stop lights can be miles and miles apart... and everything in between are fast moving (no gaps) cars.

I think Camelback has this problem... missed it this time, but have driven on it before, and missed my turn.... on and on one must go for miles to the next possible turn and a U turn.

I cannot offer a good solution... sorry. This does touch on some of the unrealistic things that are discussed in EC that may not have existed in 1976... Traffic is heavier and faster today (as exemplified by road engineers constantly upping speeds on certain city streets), and this issue is compounded by distractions such as cell phones... man, some streets are just not safe!

Perhaps what HH suggests, and then in the middle, one simply spins the bike around on the rear tire to face the other direction and then repeat the process across one lane at a time.

Of course it is a real blast standing there on the double yellow stripes while traffic moves at 50MPH around you...

Reminds me of work I used to do for the Navy that involved being between two runways as the jets landed... You pray a lot...

God help you.

genec

You don't have a clue...

LJVD is nothing, compared to the race tracks he is speaking of...

Would a BL help (and not that this is a discussion of BL) but no, no way.

Helmet Head

Gene, how is it (significantly) different. on LJV Dr traffic is 50 mph, 6 lanes...

Roody

I don't think that anyone has mentioned that it's important to begin left turns early--much earlier than you would if you were driving a car. You need extra time and room to negotiate when you are moving slowly relative to the speed of other vehicles.

It really isn't a question of whether motorists will let you in. They must let you in. That's the law and they know it. You just need experience and moxie to use what rights you have.

Granted, the roads I ride on may be less busy than yours (or they may be busier), but the basic principles stand up everywhere. Why is it so difficult for people who have not tried something to believe the testimony of those who have tried it? Do you think that we are mistaken about our experiences?

genec

The traffic is no where as dense on LJVD and the road is no where as narrow as these roads he is talking about. They are indeed difficult even to drive.

Until you have seen these, don't claim you understand. BTW I have friends in AZ and just visited... this is fresh on my mind... and RE the streets in Houston, I have a sister there... again, I have seen these with my own eyes. In fact, the situation is remarkably similar... long narrow fast roads and drivers that are actually in fear of slowing down themselves, much less for a cyclist stuck in the middle. They cannot see you well enough ahead to slow down and slow the traffic behind them. The traffic resembles a long fast continuous "train."

With LJVD you do get gaps due to the short blocks and the stop lights.

noisebeam

Gene I appreciate the insight. Having not seen these other roads being compared to I also was wondering what was different. You are right about the 'train' analogy - cars are not 6 lengths apart because they are going 60mph, they are much closer. I also lived in Houston and know those roads which can be similar, but fortunately didn't encounter as much problem there, probably because I kept to a smaller area.

It goes back to regional differences that have been brought up before.

Anyway, I don't ride on the worst of these streets, or try to avoid them as much as possible, but sometimes that isn't practical. Like getting to the grocery store after work, a 2mi ride, but two left turns on the road that parallels the freeway -so it gets rush hour overload and speed. A quote from a news article "...based on tickets it seems speeders are faster on Baseline than on Interstate 10!" (I ride Baseline often and have to make a left turn from it) and in reference to a different street "Speeds we caught of 58... 67! miles per hour [in 45mph zones] are dangerous -- and happening all the time."

Al